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========================================================================= (C) 1994 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 4 Wed Aug 17, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:35 EDT Sub: NeoDesk 4 - The Ultimate Desktop Topic to discuss NeoDesk 4, the lastest version of the original desktop replacement for Atari computers. 201 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 1 Wed Aug 17, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:36 EDT I have just posted a demo version of NeoDesk 4 (NEO4DEMO.LZH), and a press release describing the program (NEO4PRES.TXT). Upgrades and other backorders are starting to ship now and, due to the volume, may take 2-3 weeks to complete. For Immediate Release 8/17/94 --------------------- Gribnif Software is proud to announce the completion of the most recent upgrade to the original desktop replacement for Atari computers, NeoDesk 4. The wait is finally over. NeoDesk has hundreds of features, so here are just some of the more popular ones in the new version: o A completely new "look and feel", including 3D windows, enhanced dialog handling, and the ability to have multiple dialogs open at once. All this works on any Atari computer with any ROM version. o Multicolored icons - each icon can have up to 16 colors, and can even appear completely different when selected. o Icon Editor - This multiple window Icon Editor lets you edit and modify custom icons for any file or folder. The editor can read many popular icon formats, including ones from other platforms! o Any Degas, Neochrome, Tiny, IMG, or BMP picture can be viewed (by double-clicking on it) or can be used as the desktop background. Desktop pictures can even be "tiled". o Each directory window has its own menu bar, making it much easier to find frequently used options. o Each window has its own "parent directory", Show Info, and trashcan icons. o Items can be selected from the keyboard, including a search mode. o File Groups - Now you can arrange commonly used programs and data files together in the same window, even when they are physically contained in drastically different locations! Their names can even be changed, using up to 20 characters. o Font Control - NeoDesk 4 gives you the power to redefine what fonts and point sizes are used within its windows, and even for the text underneath icons. o Disk copy, file operations, and floppy disk formatting can all occur "in the background", allowing you to use your computer for other tasks at the same time. o Search Files - Easily search your system for one or more files, based on their name, size, date, or attributes. A file group can even be created containing the results. This is just one example of the powerful Filtering options which are also available for file operations. o Compatible with all Atari computers, in all resolutions, including third-party graphics cards. NeoDesk 4 is available for just $69.95 plus $4.15 S&H. Owners of NeoDesk 3 can upgrade to the new version for $25 + $3 S&H by sending us both original NeoDesk 3 master disks. Backorders are being filled right now, and may take 2-3 weeks to complete. (Shipping amounts listed apply to orders shipped within the USA only. Please contact us for other areas.) Gribnif Software P.O. Box 779 Northampton, MA 01061-0779 USA Voice: (413) 247-5620 Fax: (413) 247-5622 Dan Wilga Gribnif Software ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 2 Wed Aug 17, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:18 EDT Dan, This sounds great. You guys are going to win me over. As a matter of fact eventhough I know I'll be getting Neodesk 4 soon, I have to go and D/L the demo cause Al has just been teasing us for too long! John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 3 Wed Aug 17, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 20:43 EDT Dan, Congratulations! Sounds nice!! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 4 Wed Aug 17, 1994 VORTEXT at 22:10 PDT Glad to hear it Dan. Now I can start checking my mailbox. I'll keep looking for the demo and check it out ahead of time. Thanks, been waiting on this one! Daniel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 5 Wed Aug 17, 1994 C.MASON10 [Mad Dog] at 22:26 PDT Dan, I've been patiently waiting since the STAR show in Sacramento; mail mine yesterday! Mad Dog ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 6 Thu Aug 18, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:45 CDT Yea for Dan and NeoDesk 4!! Now I have to skip a meal or two so that I can get that upgrade. (not that it's expensive.... I'm just that broke!) - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 7 Thu Aug 18, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:57 EDT Due to a minor omission from the archive <sheepish grin> the demo isn't out yet. I'm resending it today as NEO4DEM2.LZH. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 8 Thu Aug 18, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:53 EDT Neodesk 4 looks really good. Even for non Geneva users I think it's awsome. If you are into desktops this one puts the Atari desktop to shame. Dan, I'll leave you Email but in case you see this first. If you haven't sent my order yet, I'd like the extra Icon disk! John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 9 Thu Aug 18, 1994 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 21:10 EDT I forget, when I bought early Geneva last summer wasn't I also buying Neodesk 4 whenever it came out? Or do I need to send my Neo 3 disks in for the update to Neodesk 4? Also, any possibility of an update to the developer's kit? It'd be neat to use Neo4's background file-copying in other programs, tho' that doesn't seem necessary with geneva anyhow. Thanks, Neil ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 10 Fri Aug 19, 1994 AEO.1 [Albert Dayes] at 01:12 EDT Dan, Sounds great. I guess we can finally see what Al has been talking about for such a long time. Thanks for all of your hard work to complete it. -- Albert ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 11 Fri Aug 19, 1994 EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 02:31 EDT Dan- I downloaded NEO4DEM2.LZH. Very nice demo. I have never seen or used any of the previous NeoDesk versions. The features disabled are not critical to the basic run of the product. However, I noticed an anomaly that (I hope) is just due to it being a DEMO: I loaded a desktop background IMG. Looks great. I run a program and then return to the desktop and the IMG is not being displayed on the desktop. I must do a SELECT to re-load the picture. I am using an Atari 1040 STf w/4 Megs Xtra-RAM Deluxe. TOS 1.04, GEMDOS 0.15, and GEM 1.4. Ron - ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 12 Fri Aug 19, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:15 EDT Ron, Hm. It's not supposed to work that way. I'll take a look and see if maybe there is something wrong. Neil, According to our invoices, all you got was the Geneva beta. Please give me a call or send private email if you have any information to the contrary. Thanks! I have added a way to do background copying (the old method still works, BTW) but I'll have to find the time to write it up, along with some of the other new things. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 13 Fri Aug 19, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 08:03 PDT I just tried out the Neo 4 demo and noticed that if you have the vertical scroll bar of windows configured, via Geneva, for a small width, less than standard, then the 3 window icons at the bottom left of a Neo 4 window will appear scrunched up. Just increase your scroll bar width and you'll see them fine. A very impressive demo, Dan. Ron, The background IMG works fine after running prgs for me, tiled or centered, it's always there when I return to Neo 4. But I did notice that I lost the Neo 4 background fill after running a few prgs. The background became white. This was when using a small IMG in the center of the screen. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 14 Fri Aug 19, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:35 EDT Neodesk 4 cetrainly makes for a gorgeous desktop. The colored Icons are really nice and all the dialog boxes have that NeXt look about them. > I just tried out the Neo 4 demo and noticed that if you have the vertical >scroll bar of windows configured, via Geneva, for a small width, less than >standard, then the 3 window icons at the bottom left of a Neo 4 window will >appear scrunched up. Just increase your scroll bar width and you'll see them >fine. A very impressive demo, Dan. That is what I had to do but I was a little dissapointed in having to do that. One of the cosmetic features I love about Geneva is being able to narrow the scroll bar. Always disliked the wide bar. Unfortunatly, the squished bottom left hand buttons look even worse so I had to widen the bar back to 10 points. Dan, Those buttons are directly related to the scroll bar or do you think their might be a workaround in the future? You spoiled us with the narrow bar feature now you done took it away! ;-) John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 15 Fri Aug 19, 1994 D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 18:29 CDT Dan, I just got through playing with your demo - very nice! Got 2 questions though, does the real version require a reboot to change resolutions? Also, is there anyway to make the backround of text at the bottom of an Icon, transparent? (I dislike those white rectangles obscuring the backround pic.) Damon p.s. These questions are your favorite part of releasing a new program, right? <G> ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 16 Sat Aug 20, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:47 EDT Ron, The regular NeoDesk 4 application does not lose the desktop background or the desktop picture when an app is run. The demo should not do this either, so I am at a loss as to why it would happen in your setup. Mel, When you use a picture of any kind as the desktop pic, the fill is white, intentionally. John B., The three icons at the lower left are a bit small in my setup, too, but the only one I regularly use is the leftmost one, which allows copying or moving files to the next level up in the dirrectory tree. The other two are duplicated by hotkeys (control-delete for deletion, for example), and that's easier for me, at least. Damon, The background for the icon text is always white. If you have a white background, you will have transparent label backgrounds. If you have a desktop picture centered on the screen, and your icons are at the sides, the label backgrounds will be invisible because that part of the screen is white. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 17 Sat Aug 20, 1994 J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan] at 00:12 PDT Hi, I'm considering upgrading my 3.0 to 4.0, but I did notice what looks like a feature of some sort when I tried out the demo. I use overscan and 3.0 has worked well but the demo of 4 scrunches all the menus and dialog text as if the resource file was not working quite right. this occurred when using the 9 point text. When using the 8 point text of the window menus, everything is correct....Will this be so in the commerical release? I always use overscan and won't use any product that doesn't support it...thanks.. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 18 Sat Aug 20, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:24 CDT I too have been playing around with the demo, and it's everything I expected it to be and more! I can already see how NeoDesk 4 will make doing a lot of things easier and faster. Let's see..... I got paid today, so I guess I'm a-orderin' soon! - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 19 Sat Aug 20, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:36 EDT J.Young, Did you get the first version of the demo (NEO4DEMO.LZH) from another network, or the second one (NEO4DEM2.LZH) here on GEnie? If you got NEO4DEM2, then that is indeed the way things are going to be at least in the first version of NeoDesk 4. Some changes were made in the second version which may have affected the problem you are noticing. If this is not the problem, then I'm not really sure what is. What version of TOS are you using? Do you have Geneva? Damon, If you do not have Geneva or MultiTOS, then yes, you will have to reboot in order to change resolutions. This is because of the way Atari's AES works. Nope, icons always have a white block around the text. Certainly on the desktop, I can't see why you'd want it otherwise. John B., Well, it's definitely not going to be in this version, but I suppose I could force the icon boxes to be wider without affecting the rest of the window. Ron & Mel, There is indeed a problem with the demo version losing the IMG background, and I know why, but it's not there in the final version. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 20 Sat Aug 20, 1994 D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 17:25 CDT Al, >The background for the icon text is always white. If you........... >backgrounds will be invisible because that part of the screen is white. Not if my picture covers the entire screen. I was just curious about the omission of this ability since it is selectable in other areas such as dialogs and window elements. It is just a cosmetic annoyance to me that the GEM desktop shares. If I was to do a work around, I would probably line my Icons along the bottom of the screen and use 'snap to grid' to force the text completely off the screen. Damon ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 21 Sat Aug 20, 1994 D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 18:09 CDT Dan, > Nope, icons always have a white block around the text. >Certainly on the desktop, I can't see why you'd want it otherwise. For the same reason I don't like it anywhere else, of course. :-) Just a cosmetic preference, that I take advantage of in dialogs and windows. For the desktop, picture this: a desktop icon - no text, just a white block under the icon. You can see now, I know you can :-) This is why I don't like it, because I prefer no text at all, "especially" on the desktop. Damon ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 22 Sat Aug 20, 1994 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 18:41 CDT Rats. Since NeoDesk4 started shipping Wednesday, and it's now Saturday, I was hoping (slight chance that it was) for a nice package in the mail today. Maybe Monday.... Not that I'm anxious, or anything, after months of hintlets from Al and seeing Neo4 running at TAF in June, but, well, YES, I AM anxious. I need some more ammunition to explain to my son why I'm not defecting to the world of 90-MHz Pentiums with him. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 23 Sun Aug 21, 1994 EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 00:25 EDT DAN> Hm. It's not supposed to work that way. I'll take a look and DAN> see if maybe there is something wrong. MEL> The background IMG works fine after running prgs for me, MEL> tiled or centered, it's always there when I return to Neo 4. MEL> But I did notice that I lost the Neo 4 background fill after MEL> running a few prgs. The background became white. This was when MEL> using a small IMG in the center of the screen. Dan, it seems to work that way with PI2, IMG, and BMP. After executing any type of program (ttp, tos, or prg) I return to the desktop (NeoDesk 4) to a blank background. I have to click on the DESKTOP option and do the SELECT (even though the file name is already selected). Do you need more specifics? JAR10.PRG is the last to load in the auto folder and NeoLoad.prg is run as an AUTO INSTALL program (started by SuperBoot 8.1). . . Ron - ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 24 Sun Aug 21, 1994 D.HADLAND at 09:09 PDT I noticed that the first window open in the demo will not switch to bottom of other windows, by using the icon in the top right corner. The other wi windows open after the first one do seem to work. I hope this is in only the demo. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 25 Sun Aug 21, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 10:10 PDT I've been playing around with the demo, in anticipation of receiving the full version, and I've run into a difficulty and could use some help. I remember I ran into a similar glitch when I first got Geneva and was switching back and forth from Aladdin and WordPerfect. I somehow handled the problem then but it's back again now that I'm using Neo4 as the shell (versus Neo3) with Geneva. I'm running WordPerfect on a TT with color monitor. The problem is that I can't retain my colors in WordPerfect: when I switch from WordPerfect into Aladdin or back into Neo4, and then go back into WordPerfect, the color of my type and of the cursor has been changed. I like to use black for the type and cursor, and Geneva or Neo is changing the color back to red and green. I think that the way WordPerfect works is that it saves its color scheme automatically into its SYS.WP file when you exit WordPerfect. This problem doesn't occur when I use Neo4 without Geneva. Also, the difficulty doesn't occur using Neo3 with Geneva. Any ideas on how I can keep my "color integrity" while in WordPerfect? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Sunday, August 21, 1994 10:10 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 26 Sun Aug 21, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 23:05 PDT Someone asked about the trash can icon in each window. I noticed in the demo that you have to select a file before the trash icon becomes visible. It'll show up down in the lower left hand corner of the desktop window. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 27 Mon Aug 22, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:18 EDT Damon, All Atari desktops have that property (icon labels against a background). In the TOS 2.x and higher desktops, the label background is the color of the icon. Yech! Jason, The demo is not the real thing, so don't judge it in the same way you'd judge the actual app. BTW, you can restore your desktop colors at any time by pressing control-shift- R. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 28 Mon Aug 22, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:15 EDT Al, Control-Shift-R doesn't apply to the demo, though, since it doesn't load INF files <smile>. The best way is to use Control-Shift-Alt keypad *, since that just changes the colors. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 29 Mon Aug 22, 1994 D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 18:59 CDT Al, >All Atari desktops have that property (icon labels against a background). In >the TOS 2.x and higher desktops, the label background is the color of the >icon. Yech! That doesn't mean I have to like it. :) However, on tos 4.04 at least (my next one down is 1.6), if you decide to not have text at all under the icon, there will be no 'mask' either, leaving the space completely transparent. I'd prefer an option to not have a mask, text or not. I don't think the idea is strange either, especially considering you can toggle this on window bars and dialog boxes. I never use a 'mask' on text if I can get around it. Damon ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 30 Mon Aug 22, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 23:38 EDT Dan, Does Neo4 have to reboot when you want to exit in the real version? How many Icons can we have now? How many macros? Can we redefine the control-delete combo? Does N4 run faster than N3? What about supporting Kobold, it seems to be rather solid. U.K. mags really love it. It also bypass's Data Diet for copys and moves making it that much faster than regular desktop file maintence. If you are familiar with Hisoft basic 2.1, there is a feature in there to tile the open windows. You have the option of tiling horizonailly, verticaly, or in quarters. I would really like to see this in N4 if it is not already in there. It would be great to link those functions to a macro so one could instantly reorganize the windows on screen with no effort. Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 31 Mon Aug 22, 1994 R.BODEN [Rick] at 22:37 MDT Does NeoDesk 4 take up about 150k more memory than Neo3? The demo seems to on my system. Rick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 32 Tue Aug 23, 1994 EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 00:57 EDT I am running NeoDesk 4 in ST Color mode. The icons tend to be longated (I suppose designed for 640X400 instead of 640x200) are there any MEDIUM RES ICONS available that don't look streached? Ron - ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 33 Mon Aug 22, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 23:57 PDT Al, I'll wait (with anticipation) for the full version before I freak out about the color difficulties while using Neo and Geneva. I KNOW I ran into this problem before in Geneva and I don't remember what I did to correct it, so that when it returned with the Neo 4 demo, my heart sank! I don't know if having the ability to restore the desktop colors with control- shift-R, in the full version, will address my symptom or not, since the color change occurs in WordPerfect and turns my typeface red. I can manually change the colors to black typeface using the Control Panel but that's ridiculous to have to do each time I go into WordPerfect. So, I'll wait for the full version and then try and see if there's still a problem. - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Monday, August 22, 1994 10:12 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 34 Tue Aug 23, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:35 EDT Mel, Thanks for pointing out where the trashcan icon is. The real thing operates the same way. The icons at the lower left of each window are SmartIcons, and change their appearance and function appropriately, depending on what is going on. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 35 Tue Aug 23, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:25 EDT Dan, Ah, I see. But control-shift-alt-keypad * just brought up my SnapShot DA, so I'm going to have to do some remapping. (Control-shift-alt brings it up, so the asterisk is given a cold shoulder.) Damon, I see your point. The option would be nice to have. Bman, I exit Neo 4 without the need to reboot. I have 250 icons at this time, and ran during testing with 1200 at one point. I believe the macro limit is about 32K, total size, any number of macros. N4 is much faster than N3. I don't see why Kobold's ability to bypass Data Diet matters, since you can set up Data Diet to turn itself on and off based on what app is running. You'll even be able to do that in a multitasking environment, thanks to a little gem Keith Gerdes is working on. You can instantly reorganize windows with a macro already. Ron, I have created some non-elongated versions of a few of the ST Medium default Neo 4 icons, and will upload them shortly. Users can patch their own, too; the icon editor is very easy to use. Jason, Just to repeat, the problem is in WordPerfect, not in Geneva or Neo 4. I suggest you run WordPerfect in monochrome to get around it. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 36 Tue Aug 23, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 08:14 PDT Y'know, what I'd really love to see is Data Diet being able to use Neo 4's clipboard as a work directory. Sure would be cool with its auto resizeability and speed. FONTLOAD.PRG being able to use Speedo fonts and somehow scale them down to the 8x8 and 6x6 sizes would be cool too. Just a thought. Thanks! - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 37 Tue Aug 23, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:36 EDT Ron, We tried to edit the default icons that come with NeoDesk 4 (the ones in the demo) so that they look allright in medium rez. In fact, the guy who did it only owns a color monitor at home. If they still seem stretched to you, you can always edit them more in the icon editor in the final version. Even if you don't feel confident drawing icons, just making them shorter is pretty easy. Rick B, The amount of memory NeoDesk 4 takes really depends a lot on how you have it configured, and whether or not you are using Geneva. If you take a look at the "Memory..." dialog, you can see what I mean. It changes as you open windows and dialogs. Bman, No, the real version doesn't reboot when you quit, just the demo. There are almost no limits anymore. You can have any number of icons, and up to 32K of macros. Control-Delete: Right now, not without a resource file editor. But the provision is there. It's faster in many respects, yes. I suppose it all depends on what specifically you mean. Kobold may be better supported in a future version. There's nothing preventing you from using it now, you just have to use its interface for the copying. There's never been much call for tiling windows. I'll consider it, though. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 38 Tue Aug 23, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:34 EDT Mel, You sure don't want much do you? <smile> The might be able to be done, depending on how Data Diet does things, but it wouldn't really be optimal because of the way things in NeoDesk are set up now. The second would take mucho code to do in the converter. You can have OUTLINE.PRG generate the bitmap fonts, though, y'know... Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 39 Tue Aug 23, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 13:24 PDT Dan, Regarding using the Clipboard as a Data Diet work dir: Just wishing. :- ) I think that if the code for the clipboard could be turned into a ramdisk prg (or even a .npg), that would be a neat little deal since auto-resizeable ramdisks are pretty rare. The only one I've seen is Mortimer's. That comment about using OUTLINE.PRG from Speedo to generate bitmaps from Speedo fonts caught my eye, though. As far as I know Outline can't actually save out a bitmap representation of a Speedo font to disk for use in other GDOS prgs, but I wish it could. But if this is possible, somebody please let me know. I did fire up Fontload to see if it has support for Speedo, but it requires one to load a GDOS .fnt file. Thanks! - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 40 Tue Aug 23, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 22:21 EDT Is there any prg that will take a color pic file and make a 16 color icon for use in Neo4? I have seen this on my friends mac. Al, I wanted Neo4 to support the automated control of Data Diet for copys and moves, I hate not remembering to manualy turn DD off. Is there a slow down when you use 1200 icons? I assume that it eats a large chunk of ram to have that many. ST Report says that Kobold comes with a prg that will intercept gemdos disk calls and route them to Kobolds faster routines. The only problem that I have encountered with Kobold is that Data Rescue or other live file undeleters cant undo a Kobold delete, YET. How does the window reorganization work? Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 41 Tue Aug 23, 1994 EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 22:30 EDT Dan- I ran SeBra (mono emulator) and NeoDesk looks great (and so do my BMP's I copied from my Windows machine . . . The MS Windows 'paper' looks pretty silly on an Atari desktop. <g> Maybe I am wrong, but the ND4 ICONS look great at 640x400 but look quite streached at 640x200. Is your friend with the color monitor running the old ST MED RES? Al- I will look forward to your Medium ICON rendition. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 42 Wed Aug 24, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:31 EDT Ron, He's got an SC1224. I think I know the reason, now. Some of them were specifically modified for a 4-color icon and these don't look stretched. You probably mean the ones which are using the 2-color icon in ST Medium. Some of those might look stretched, though we tried to make as good a compromise as we could between appearance and NIC file size. I've also looked at the icons, and most of them aren't too bad. Perhaps in the future we'll include more 4-color versions of the icons. Bman, The icon editor will read any of the bitmap formats NeoDesk recognizes and allow you to create an icon. It only reads the upper left corner, so you have to make sure the bitmap is saved with the area you want in that location. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 43 Wed Aug 24, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:38 EDT Mel, Hey! Data Diet users would like that idea! Dan, A minor bug, or feature <g>: When I have the windows all set for icon display, but first open a group window set for text display, all the desktop windows I open subsequently use text display. Mel, What's Mortimer's (ramdisk)? Does it auto-size for use with DD? Run on the TT? Make breakfast? "-) B Man, The number of icons used doesn't slow things down except when loading NeoDesk 4. With a LOT of icons, loading may take 30 seconds to a minute. With 200 to 300 icons, it may take 5 to 10 seconds. Your mileage may vary (and the CaTTamaran is a nice help!). Keith G. is working on a way of handling what you want in Data Diet. That's all I can say. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 44 Wed Aug 24, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 17:16 PDT Al, Mortimer is an older German commercial tsr all-in-one Harlekin-like utility that pops up its interface at any time (even in TOS apps or when a modal dialog is up) when you invoke its hotkey, although it doesn't do nearly as much as Harlekin. You can snap screens, read files, there's a magnifier, spooler, screensaver, some other stuff and the ramdisk. It auto resizes to whatever size is needed as you add files and shrinks back down to the minimum size when you delete the files, just like the Neo clipboard. But I didn't like the overhead of having to use up ram for all the other functions of Mortimer I wasn't using, it didn't seem to recognize my TOS 1.6 according to its install msg, although it would install and I had some conflicts with it and other prgs. But the ramdisk part was sure cool with DD. I don't know if it runs on a TT. The original version came out around the time the TOS 1.6 roms were getting burned, so who knows if it works on the TT, but there is a Mortimer Deluxe that came out later that should be TT ready. I think Mortimer is handled by the ST Club in the UK now. An auto resizing ramdisk would be a neat deal for ST users and if reset proof, I think it would become the one and only ramdisk for all ST'ers. Who would need anything else? A ramdisk that only uses as much ram as it needs and gives back the ram when files are removed, cool! With multitasking being all the rage these days, users are becoming more frugal with their ram and such a utility would fit in nicely. I don't think such a prg would be enough for a commercial package, but as shareware it would probably become the de facto standard for ramdisks and dominate over all others. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 45 Wed Aug 24, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 20:05 CDT COOL! I'm home on vacation all week, and what nice little surprise do I get in today's mail but NEO4!! I haven't seen the demo, so this'll be a total surprise -- one I' really looking forward to. Thanks, Dan! -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 46 Thu Aug 25, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:28 EDT Gerry, I aim to please. <smile> Al, That's not really a bug, so much as it is a matter of preference. In general, whenever you open a new window it inherits the attributes of the topmost window. In this case, the topmost one happens to be a group. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 47 Thu Aug 25, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:03 EDT Dan, I won't bug you about Neo4... I ordered it 'kinda late, BUT... can I presume the ICON disk will be available at the CAF 94? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 48 Thu Aug 25, 1994 K.GERDES [TraceTech] at 18:49 CDT >Bman wrote, >I wanted Neo4 to support the automated control of Data Diet for copys >and moves, I hate not remembering to manualy turn DD off. >Al replied, >Keith G. is working on a way of handling what you want in Data Diet. Actually Bman is still lobbying for the addition of a 'Data Diet On/Off' option in NeoDesk's "file copy/move" dialog. - Keith ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 49 Thu Aug 25, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:28 EDT Mel, Thanks for the description. There's an autosizing RD in my collection, but it wasn't very compatible with current OS code, as far as I recall. Y'now what I always liked? MaxiDisk, which compressed files as they were copied to the RD; you could get 720K on a 500K ramdisk, easily. It even worked on the TT last time I tried it. Dan, A feature, not a bug. :-) But it's a feature I find less than appealing. Any hope of getting windows to behave the way they are listed in the INF file? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 50 Thu Aug 25, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:02 CDT Dan -- > I aim to please. <smile> You did! I've got Neo4 running now (and, ok, I haven't hardly cracked the manual yet). It looks absolutely wonderful. Really a nice job. I especially like the drop-down menus in the disk windows -- nice touch. But... didja HAVE to use that urp-green color for the box that shows when it's loading?? :-) Looking forward to hitting the manual hard. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 51 Fri Aug 26, 1994 LYRE at 14:01 EDT Dan, I've been reading uptopic and notice that Bman put in a request for tiled windows. Add me to the list for that enhancement. Now if only it would work in programs that don't save your window layout. Lyre 1:15 pm, August 26, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 52 Fri Aug 26, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 13:51 PDT Al, Say, if that auto resizing ramdisk is pd/shareware, please u/l it. Thanks! - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 53 Fri Aug 26, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 20:19 EDT Gerry, The color of that box is usually grey on a 16-color display, not green. Your color palette must be modified. Al, Maybe. I'll consider it. Keith, Because of the added complexity of background file copying, it became prohibitive both time- and code-wise for me to add a DD On/Off switch. Matt, Yes, we'll have icon disks there for sale. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 54 Fri Aug 26, 1994 J.TURCOTTE [JARL T.] at 22:43 MDT Gribnif, Just got it and love it, no problems....ah no BIG problems. When I load in an icon from NEO3 and try to convert to 4 or 16 colors I get a mess. Is there a way to fix this without having to load in a screen snapper and creating a 16 or 4 color IMG to load in? Jarl is out of here... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 55 Fri Aug 26, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 23:47 PDT >Jason, > >Just to repeat, the problem is in WordPerfect, not in Geneva or Neo 4. I >suggest you run WordPerfect in monochrome to get around it. > >Al >---------- Al, how do I run WordPerfect in monochrome on a color monitor. I'm curious. But, even if I can, that's not really an ideal solution for me. I like the colors on the screen when I'm in WordPerfect. I've just received the full version of Neo4 and I'm discovering interesting features. When I first run WordPerfect and then use the menu or the keyboard to switch back to Neo4 (this is with Geneva), I consistently get two bombs! Even more interesting, when I run WordPerfect and then use the menu or keyboard to go back into Geneva Manager, I don't get bombs at all -- but I do sometimes get put back into Neo4 without bombs. Yes, that's right, I select Geneva and go back into Neo4 (this happens often, but not always). And THEN, after having used Geneva rather than Neo, I can THEN switch back and forth between WordPerfect and Neo without bombs. I have no idea why I'm bombing in the first place or why I'm getting into Neo with a Geneva selection, or why that all then clears up the bombing problem. Can anyone else reproduce the symptom of bombing when first switching from WordPerfect into Neo4? This is occurring for me on a TT with color monitor. Also, when I exit Aladdin, and get the menu bar without words, the Readme suggestion of alt/tab doesn't do anything. (sigh) - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Friday, August 26, 1994 11:09 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 56 Sat Aug 27, 1994 B.MENAGH at 13:34 EDT I have just received and installed Neo4. Thanks for the continued support for this fine product. I'll read some of the other messgaes to sort ou to sort out some of my beginning questions which are as follows: 1. There was no registration form in the package, will I send inn a letter or leave Email? 2. I notice that NEO4 seems to use more memory. Some of my regular proghrams will not run - posting a memory error. I've set the limit of memory that NEO4 uses to 500K since the 250K in the setting seemed to small. I tried no picture and the limit amount of memory available to NEO4. 3. I also tried to run Geneva. First installing NEO4, then reinstalled Geneva. Geneva tells me it wants NEO3.08 (I think that's it.) 4. Perhaps because of the greater memory use, NEO4 seems to take a noticeably longer timer to reload into memory. Comments and suuggestions appreciated. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 57 Sat Aug 27, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 12:36 CDT Dan -- > The color of that box is usually grey on a 16-color display, not green. Your >color palette must be modified. That may well be, but in medium res (which is 4-color, no?) it's Mr. Yuk Green. And it's the last box to show up, appearing right after the Geneva box (which, on my display, is red). No big deal. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 58 Sat Aug 27, 1994 W.ORTIZ [Will] at 23:08 EDT Hey Guys!! I got NeoDesk 4 today!!!! I installed it and I'm checking it out now. It was worth the wait. Great Job GRIBNIF!!! Will ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 59 Sun Aug 28, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:28 EDT Mel, I'll hunt that RD down. Busy lately, after Dan roped me into being a stand-up comic in Bridgeport. :-) Jason, Um, you pretend green is gray? I'd look for a used b/w monitor, for one thing. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 60 Sun Aug 28, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 16:18 PDT I'd love someone to check if the symptom I reported with Neo 4 and Geneva is being repeated on other systems. When I run WordPerfect and then try to switch back to Neo using either a keypress or the menu bar, I consistently get 2 bombs. This did not occur with the Neo 4 demo with Geneva, only with the full version. I had been having success switching back into Geneva Manager and then into Neo, but even that route is now resulting in 2 bombs (when I click on Geneva in the menu bar). Unless I can get this straightened out, Neo 4 won't work for me!! - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Sunday, August 28, 1994 4:14 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 61 Sun Aug 28, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:32 CDT Hey, all -- For some reason I can't get a "load a new configuration" macro to run. Neo keeps saying, "Can't run that macro because desktop has changed." Here's what I'm doing: From my primary desktop, I "Begin Macro." I open my Neo4 folder, click once on my secondary desktop .INF file, then drop down the OPTIONS menu, click on "Load Configuration," and the secondary desktop comes up. I then drop down OPTIONS and END MACRO, and give it a name. That's it. Regardless of whether I'm on my primary or secondary desktop, I keep getting that "Can't run that macro" error message. Where am I going wrong? -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 62 Mon Aug 29, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 02:00 PDT Dan, A few problems with an otherwise EXCELLENT upgrade: 1. How do I load my ND3 macros and desktop notes into ND4? ND4 tells me that they are not valid. Also, while my .INF files will load, the icon positions are TOTALLY screwed up - some icons are even layered on top of each other and appear to be selected. 2. The way the icon filename background overlap each other in Groups make Group icon placement almost impossible! I think this is an EXCELLENT argument for transparent icon masks as suggested by Damon. MS Windows' icons have transparent filename backgrounds within windows, but colored backgrounds on the "desktop". 3. Exiting many of the SETTINGS dialogs does not completely redraw the screen. I use Warp 9, but have this problem even if W9 is not loaded. The number of times I have to use SHIFT-ALT-UNDO is extremely irritating. I'm using a MegaSTE, 4 megs, mono monitor, and the following: Auto Programs (no sort): BOOTKILL.PRG 16MHZ_C .PRG DMIRROR .PRG UNSQUISH.PRG SUPERBT .PRG JAR20 .PRG GENEVA .PRG WARP9_ST.PRG FONTLOAD.PRG NEOLOAD .PRG TIMECHK .PRG CLOCKSET.PRG DRVIN .PRG SCC .PRG OBURST .PRG SPDGDOS5.PRG NEWBOB .PRG CSHOW63 .PRG SUPERBTA.PRG Accessories: TASKMAN .ACC EDHAK .ACC XCONTROL.ACC WARP9_CP.ACC Thanks for any suggestions and help! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 63 Mon Aug 29, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:15 EDT Chuck, The old macros and notes cannot be loaded into the new version. Too many changes occurred to the new file formats to make a conversion possible. Did you use the INF loader to load your old INF files? If you're loading the icons from an INF file that was saved in a rez which is different than the rez you are in, you may get some of the effects you notice. You should still be able to move the icons to where you want them, though. If all else fails, send me your INF file by private email and I'll have a look. I'm surprised you're having problems with dialogs not redrawing, I've never seen that. If you are using Warp 9, you do have to make sure that its "Zoom boxes" option is on if you also have Geneva. You can turn the "Grow/shrink boxes" option off in Geneva instead. Gerry, You shouldn't be recording the part of opening the folder. Just start macro recording, select the INF file, load it, and end the recording. B.Menagh, It's not necessary to register with us again, since you got it directly from us, in this case. If you use the "Limit to" option, then that should be fine. Are you sure you aren't using the "Take xxx Kb at all times option"? Aside from that, about the only other thing you can do to decrease the amount of memory used is to decrease the number of custom icons you have. The new format has to take up twice as much memory as the old one, due to the separate selected images. What do you mean by "tells me it wants NEO3.08"? I will admit that the INSTALL.PRG asks for NeoDesk 3, but you can just as easily point it to the NEODESK.EXE which is part of NeoDesk 4. Is this where your confusion is? If not, please be more specific about the error message. The executable is somewhat larger in NeoDesk 4 (though it's actually a little smaller if you have Geneva, since some code doesn't get loaded) and this can increase the load time. Jason, Argh. I can't get my copy of WP to run, period. I'm going to have to reinstall it from the master disks. From the sounds of it, the menu bar thing when exiting Aladdin is still the same Geneva problem that's been there. You have to avoid switching between two single-tasking apps. Jarl, That's truly odd, but there does definitely seem to be something wrong with that. I know it used to work. I'm afraid all I can do is say that it's something that needs to be fixed, and I'll probably be doing a patch program before too much longer anyway. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 64 Mon Aug 29, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:25 EDT Gerry, I get that message, too, when I try to load a new set of macros. Dan, My brother got his Neo 4 from Toad and reports that the icon editor crashes when he does a Show Information on an icon. I confirmed this on my systems. (I'd never done that; sorry for missing it!) Chuck, You can arrange the icons in a group window any way you want. Have you done this? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 65 Mon Aug 29, 1994 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 22:45 EDT Dan, I received my copy of NeoDesk 4 in the mail last Tuesday and feel that it was well worth the wait. I especially like the addition of Groups. In Neo3, I created the rough equivalent of "groups" by creating 6 distinct NEODESKH.INF files, one for each of my "groups", and then used macros to load the desired .INF file in. With Neo4, I can get by with only one NEODESKH.INF file which saves me lots of time when I need to make a configuration change. One thing that I would like to see added in some future release, though, is the ability to assign a single alphabetic letter, such as already exists for desktop icons, to individual items within a Group so that a program can be lauched from the keyboard without the use of the mouse. I would like to report 2 minor problems that I've discovered with Neo4. The first involves Geneva's SETMOUSE.PRG. Recently, I began using NVDI v2.5 (instead of Warp9) and, based on some advice that Al Fasoldt gave me on how to load Mouse-Ka-Mania II shapes in an NVDI environment, I had been using the GEM.CNF file to run SETMOUSE.PRG (Charles Johnson's own autoloader, AUTOMOUS.PRG, quit working when I migrated from Warp 9 to NVDI) which, in turn, read in my desired mouse shapes from the SETMOUSE.DAT file. When I installed Neo4, this operation of running SETMOUSE from the GEM.CNF file constantly forced my system to bomb during boot up without any apparent explanation (I can supply you with the register readings if you like) even on a bare system with just JAR, GENEVA, and NEODESK4. I fixed my problem by no longer running SETMOUSE from the GEM.CNF file, but rather loading it after NeoDesk 4 has initialized as a NeoDesk 4 auto-execute program. A second minor problem that I've run into is that under Neo3, I had created an Alt-Esc macro to close my Neo3 windows just like in Geneva. Now in Neo4, the Alt-Esc keystroke has been assigned to closing folders (although the manual appendix on keystrokes indicates that Geneva/Neo4 users will get Close Window with Alt-Esc which isn't so) so I'm having to relearn ^W for closing windows <sigh!>. I realize the above are nits, but I wanted to pass them along to you anyway. The bottom line is that NeoDesk 4 has, thus far, been rock solid for me and I'm really pleased that I am finally getting the opportunity to use it. Thank you for bringing this product to the Atari market! ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 66 Mon Aug 29, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:17 CDT Dan -- > The old macros and notes cannot be loaded into the new version. Too many No one should know better than you... but... somehow I got my old macros loaded in just fine. Can't recall how, tho. >you use the INF loader to load your old INF files? If you're loading the icons >from an INF file that was saved in a rez which is different than the rez you >are in, you may get some of the effects you notice. You should still be able FYI, I had the same problem as Chuck with old desktops. Stuff was all over the place, and where I once had 8 hard drive icons, only 3 would show up. It was easy enough, though, to recreate the desktops. > I'm surprised you're having problems with dialogs not redrawing, I've never >seen that. If you are using Warp 9, you do have to make sure that its "Zoom >boxes" option is on if you also have Geneva. You can turn the "Grow/shrink And I had that same problem, too. I got it a LOT on the dialog at END MACRO. However, I know it's not Neo because I loaded that into the system alone. Didn't know the trick about the "Zoom Boxes" in Warp 9. I'll try that. > You shouldn't be recording the part of opening the folder. Just start macro >recording, select the INF file, load it, and end the recording. I've gotta be doing something very stupid, but I can't get it to work. Again, I open the Neo4 folder THEN start the macro recording. Click once on SYQUEST.INF (my desktop for when the SyQ is connected to the system), click on LOAD CONFIGURATION. The desktop changes to my SyQ desktop, and I click on END MACRO. I assign it a key. Then I save it as the default NEODESKM.MAC Then I reload my default desktop, NEODESKM.INF. and press F2. I get the error dialog, "Can't run that macro. The desktop has changed." In fact, I get that same macro even when the SyQ desktop is still showing. Where am I taking a left when I should be going straight? Thanks for all the time, Dan. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 67 Mon Aug 29, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 23:24 CDT Jeff Wiles said in the Neo3 topic: >Someone said they had problems with using their notes file. All I did was put >my 3.04 notes file in the Neo4 folder and they DID appear on my Neo4 desktop. >Don't know why but it worked for me. YES! That's how I did it, too!! Also, Dan, did you ever tell us what we were doing wrong in the "convert 2 color to 4 color icons" thing? Whenever I have a 2 color icon (my old Neo 3 icons, for instance) that I either convert or cut and paste, the result is an unusuable mess. Again and again, thanks... -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 68 Tue Aug 30, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 01:43 EDT I got my Neodesk 4 upgrade today. Fantastic!!! Need I say more? I too am a little troubled about not being able to convert my old NeoDesk 3 icons into 4 or 16 colors without re-drawing them from scratch. Everytime I try to convert them to 4 or 16 colors in the icon editor, I get scrambled eggs <grin>. Well for now, I will start redrawing them again... Thanks for making a great product even better. -= Lou T. =- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 69 Mon Aug 29, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 23:31 PDT Dan, Yes, I used the INF loader, and the resolution is the same. Also, this is the first I've heard about having to leave "zoom boxes" on in Warp 9 with Geneva. Did I miss that in the manual? In any case, I'll give it a shot, and let you know if it helps. I'll try converting an INF file again and see if I still have the problem. Thanks! Al, Yes, that's where the problem lies - if I put two icons right next to each other (or even within the width of two icons) - lined up side by side - their filename backgrounds overlap, with the filename of the icon placed first being obscured by the filename background of the icon placed second. On my mono monitor (ST high res), the width of the background is about two inches. I hope this makes sense - if you need any more info, let me know. As it is, I really don't have the screen real estate necessary to use groups at all - four icons take up about eight square inches (unless I don't mind the filenames being unreadable)! By the way, the icons also can't be placed in the group window any closer to the left edge of the window than the end of their filename backgrounds, wasting even more screen space. Any help or suggestions I can get with this would be greatly appreciated - the group thing was one of the features I most eagerly anticipated in ND4! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 70 Tue Aug 30, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 07:42 EDT Gerry - Just a guess, but prior to ending the macro, did you close all open windows? I think I had the same problem once or twice because I had left a drive window open when ending a macro, then when I ran it from a desktop without that window being open... it was a 'changed' desktop. I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've seen the problem. I'm sure someone will give you the correct info, if I am. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 71 Tue Aug 30, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:23 EDT Chuck, I'm considering going to two-line names for items in groups, so this would help the overlap problem. At this point I've gotten a number of comments about not being able to convert the icons from an older INF file, so I'm assuming there must be something I missed. Gerry, Well, I'm not sure why, but I can't get a macro to work that way either. It won't work for icons on the desktop, either, so I'm afraid I don't have a workaround for you right now. The 2- to 4/16-color conversion doesn't work right, either. I didn't try going the other way lately, but considering the number of times I did so when creating the icon disk I'd be very surprised if that was broken too. Mike, I'm really surprised about the problem with SETMOUSE, but I'll try it and see if I cn reproduce it. Alt-Esc simply produces the equivalent of clicking on the Close Window gadget. It's intercepted by Geneva and turned into the AES message that tells NeoDesk the close box was "clicked" on. There's not really a good way I can think of to satisfy what you want (which is to treat Alt-Esc like ^W), and maybe now you see why. Al, I'll fix that. I never thought to try that either <smile>. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 72 Tue Aug 30, 1994 D.HADLAND at 21:08 PDT I have a Mega STE with 4 Meg Ram and boot using XBOOT with NEO4 auto load- ing from XBOOT. Here is a list of problems I am Having. 1. File Copy over existing files causes System crash Neo3 Doesn't. 2. When creating a group file and saved. Opening group window in text mode is OK. Changing to Icon mode I loose some of my icons. 3. Setting windows to sort by type. Save Desktop. Next time loading into Neo4, the sort is set back to sort by name. 4. Neo Control panel is has a few of its onw problems. A:Radio Boxes in the wrong place "Repeat Key" B:Bell, Mouse,Palette,Floppy, and Ram Icons all have the wrong messages attached to them. (click on bell and get mouse edit) C:Click on Ram Chip also freezes system. 5. I have had one program so far that bombs in Neo4. 4_7_11.PRG is a Solitare game. It crashes with two bombs. It runs good in Neo3. None of these problems are serious and so far I like the new features of Neo4. Nice Job :-) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 73 Wed Aug 31, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 00:19 CDT Dan -- > Well, I'm not sure why, but I can't get a macro to work that way either. It >won't work for icons on the desktop, either, so I'm afraid I don't have a >workaround for you right now. Thanks a bundle for looking into it. I'm glad to know it wasn't just me being dense (as usual). -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 74 Wed Aug 31, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:55 EDT Mike Squire, Alt-Esc works in Neo 4 and in Geneva to back out of the current folder. I have the keypad "-" key assigned, via Geneva, to close windows. The mouse is not needed to launch programs from groups. Hit Tab and then cursor over to the app's alias, or type the first letters of the name. When the appropriate icon or name is highlighted, hit Return. Gerry, Your experience is the same as mine. I saw Dan hit macro keys to load different desktops at the CAF show, so I'm sure he's doing it properly. :-) But the technique has been escaping me, too. (The method that worked in Neo 3.x isn't working here.) Chuck, Try setitng up groups that are in text mode, using small text. I have some group windows on the ST that are quite small and very easy to get at. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 75 Wed Aug 31, 1994 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 02:46 PDT Neo 4 is beautiful! Now my TT looks as good "just sitting there" as my wife's clone ever was. Of course, the clone is blown away when it comes to actually _using_ the computer... One thing I've noticed... If I use "Change Item" to rename an Icon in a group, I lose the icon associated with it. Am I missing something? Buffalo Bob ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 76 Wed Aug 31, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:04 EDT D. Hadland, Odd about that 4_7_11 program; it's one of the ones my wife and I play on the ST, and we've been running Geneva and Neo 4 on it for quite some time, without a problem when playing that game. From the other problems you report, I'd suspect an installation that went crazy, or a conflict with something else that is running. I just helped another user who had a lot of crashing -- all caused by his setup. He was loading NeoDesk twice. This is not that hard to do if a boot manager AND the "shell" line in GEM.CNF both run NeoDesk. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 77 Wed Aug 31, 1994 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 15:22 EDT in re: 4_7_11.prg. I have found that this prg reacts strangely to various versions of GDOS. Runs ok with Speedo 4.0, crashes with GDOS 1.1 or G+PLUS 1.5. Also seems to have some conflicts with Warp9. I suspect that it is not as simple as GDOS versions, but has to do with the mix of auto prgs and accs. I've also found that with rapid movements of the mouse I can end up with a back screen or the original palette. If I run 4_7_11 before I use KandinskY, the palette in K will be all screwed up. Sometimes, depending upon what I've run before, when I use 4_7_11 the mouse button acts strangely - as if I had done a press AND a release some time later. The time varies. 4_7_11 works ok with Neo3 and Geneva, but the mouse button response is VERY slow. Conclusion: There are strangenesses with 4_7_11. Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 11:03 AM Mountain Time Wednesday, August 31, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 78 Wed Aug 31, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 20:39 EDT Neo4 has pumped new life into my TT (just as Geneva did when I first got it). Many thanks to Dan, Gribnif and the beta testers for making it what it is... I have been busy redesigning many of my icons (I will upload a bunch soon). At first I thought there was something wrong because the in the icon window in the "edit-icon" mode would not let me save the icons as a NIC file, the option was always greyed out. But then I realized that this is down automatically when you return to NeoDesk's desktop and the NIC file is located in the Neodesk4 folder. I was so used to Neo3 which saved its icons automatically in a RSC file and you had to manually save them as a NIC file. I have noticed a couple other quirks in the program. While editing icons, after I was finished re-editing an icon, it will show up in the icon window with some garbage right above it. This is not saved when you return to the desktop (thankfully). Also sometimes I will have to re-do the icons mask a couple times before it "takes." On a rare occasion, I will lose some of the installed icons I have on my desktop. If I reload the INF file, they will come back. In the GROUPS, if change the name that shows up in the window for a certain application, you will loose whatever custom icon you had assigned for that file/program type. The opaque name option does not seem to work for filenames at all. Regardless if you have this option on or off, they are always opaque. I believe changing the color of the font has no effect either. Well these are just minor things compared to the big picture. I seriously recommend NeoDesk 4 for everyone that may be considering it. Hey, if you own an Atari 68K based computer, you should own NeoDesk 4 (and Geneva too). -= Lou =- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 79 Wed Aug 31, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 22:18 EDT Okay... my mistake. My last message I mentioned that changing the font to opaque or not had no effect one way or another, because it was always opaque. I see now in the manual, it states that these settings will only effect the window when it is in "Show as Text" and that the icons will always have an opaque box around the text. Sorry about that. -= Lou =- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 80 Wed Aug 31, 1994 B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 21:01 MDT I just received my copy of NeoDesk 4. So far, I have had trouble getting it to work with my setup. First of all, should it work with a Falcon-X-Boot-NVDI- Geneva combination? I haven't been able to get it to do so yet. I keep getting an "Illegal AES call" (or something like that) and then go right to the standard DeskTop. I've tried it just with X-Boot and NVDI (no Geneva) and it gives me the same thing. Is there something that keeps NeoDesk from working properly with X-Boot? Th'Perfesser ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 81 Wed Aug 31, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:13 PDT When I try and use SpeedoGdos fonts in my windows only the folder names are displayed, filenames disappear. Also the line in the window that might say "85 items in 98,090 bytes" disappears. Also, according to the manual, the first 16 SpeedoGdos fonts will be accessible for use. If you don't like that batch of 16 and have other fonts installed, is there any way to reorder them so as to make other fonts accessible? Also I've found that in naming NPI files for the desktop, or in naming drive icons for the desktop, if you're renaming them while Geneva is installed and try to use spaces in the names, Geneva won't display anything after the spaces. But if I do my naming without Geneva being installed, save everything and then reboot with Geneva, the names are displayed properly including spaces. Even more drastic weirdness occurs if I try to use Geneva's Task Manager to fiddle around with the size of window bars from within Neodesk 4, but I'll save that for another message. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 82 Thu Sep 01, 1994 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 07:03 EDT Dan, >I'm really surprised about the problem with SETMOUSE, but I'll try it >and see if I can reproduce it. Over in the GENEVA topic, Tom Carman suggested that he'd solved the problem by moving the "shell" statement, contained in the GEM.CNF file, from its location at the top of the file (as placed there by the INSTAALL program) to somewhere after the "run" statements. I relocated my "shell" statement to the bottom of the file right after the line where the "shell" statement is commented out and now I'm having no trouble running SETMOUSE.PRG from my GEM.CNF file. Go figure ;-). -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Al, >Alt-Esc works in Neo 4 and in Geneva to back out of the current >folder. I have the keypad "-" key assigned, via Geneva, to close >windows. >The mouse is not needed to launch programs from groups. Hit Tab and >then cursor over to the app's alias, or type the first letters of the >name. When the appropriate icon or name is highlighted, hit Return. Thanks for the tips. I'll try them out. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 83 Thu Sep 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:23 EDT David, Thanks for the bug report. I haven't had a problem with the NPI naking like you've described, but this my be specific to certain hardware/software setups. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 84 Thu Sep 01, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:02 EDT David F, Version 4.11 or newer of Speedo GDOS is required. It sounds like you are still using 4.10. I tried reordering the EXTEND.SYS (with Speedo 5) and that did not change anything. All you can really do is temporarily remove the unwanted fonts. It's pretty easy to do with OUTLINE.ACC. The same Speedo version comment goes for the renaming problem you are having. Perfesser, The problem is definitely not XBoot or NVDI, but it might be that you have mixed version 3.0x files with the new 4.00 files. Check the NEOLOAD.PRG in your AUTO folder, the NEOCNTRL.ACC/RSC and all other files. They should have dates from this year. Lou, It's beginning to sound like some bits of NeoDesk's memory are getting trashed at random times (icon editor problems, disappearing icons, etc.) If you can reproduce this sort of thing, you might want to start trying it without DA's and other AUTO folder programs. I'll see if I can reproduce the thing you mention about icons in groups. It seems to me, I saw this happen in a very early beta, but I thought I fixed it. The opaque option is only supposed to affect text in windows, not icons. I'm considering having it work for icons in a future version. Buffalo Bob, Are you saying that if you use "Change Item" to rename an icon, then the icon disappears? This should definitely not happen, and never has for me. Or do you mean that if you use "Show Info" the link is broken? This is definitely true, since that renames the physical copy and does not alter the group reference. You need to drag the group icon to the trash and re-drag the appropriate icon from a directory window back into the group. D.Hadland, 1. This sounds a lot like the old problem with ICD's COPYFIX program. If you are using it, I suggest you do not, since it causes problems like this and is not needed with NeoDesk anyway. 2. If the grou pwas created or added to in text mode, then some of the positions of the icons may not be correct. The best thing to do is to use the "Snap to grid" function with the "sort" option on. This will rearrange all of the icons in a format like a directory window. 3. Yes, this is definitely a problem. 4. It sounds to me like you may still be using the RSC file from NeoDesk 3. Check the date on NEOCNTRL.RSC. 5. I'll try to find this program. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 85 Thu Sep 01, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 18:58 EDT Dan, Where in line is my upgrade? Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 86 Thu Sep 01, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:55 PDT Great, I knew there was a Version 5.0 SpeedoGdos available from Compo, but this is the first I've ever heard of 4.11. How do I go about getting version 4.11? Is is a free upgrade from 4.10? ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 87 Fri Sep 02, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:50 EDT David F, 4.11 was shipped with some Falcons, and I think it's what they are still sending. You can try Atari, but they will probably just send you to Compo for 5. Bman, Yours came in so recently that it hasn't been entered into the computer yet. I'm afraid I can't give you anything more definite than "within the next 2-3 weeks." Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 88 Fri Sep 02, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:08 EDT Dan, I was trying not to ask (really, I was) but, can you give me an idea of where on the list my order stands? Getting antsy, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 89 Fri Sep 02, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 21:09 MDT Dan, I am having problems running NeoDesk 4 as an accessory with the NEO Control Panel or the NeoDesk Queue Accessory. I can run it without these or with the XCONTROL.ACC instead, but when I try to run either of these NeoDesk Accessories I get 8 Bombs and a message stating a Privilege Violation has occurred. I noticed on page 9 of the manual that it says the NEOPATH statement should be configured to where the NEODESK.ACC is stored. I assume you mean where the NEODESK.EXE is stored as this fits the context of your statement earlier in the paragraph. Should the NEOPATH statement have 'setenv' in front of it? My statement reads, setenv NEOPATH=c:\neodesk4 I have also noticed a problem with the Icon Editor when launched from Neodesk running in a window. When returning to the Desktop the program locks up with the Mouse pointer flashing faintly. As Mike Squire reported here yesterday, I too had a problem with getting Neodesk to run as the Shell from the GEM.CNF file at first. I would get two bombs just before the Desktop should have appeared. I noticed that if I commented out the 'run C:\GENEVA\SETMOUSE\SETMOUSE.PRG' statement it would run fine, so I tried reactivating SETMOUSE.PRG and moving my shell statement to just after the run Setmouse statement and everything worked fine. You may want to look into this. Finally, I have noticed that when Neodesk is running in a window or as an Accessory macros and key assignments will not work until a drive window is opened. I believe I did read something about getting fixed in release 004 of Geneva, however. Thanks for a great program and for sticking with us in a tough market. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 90 Fri Sep 02, 1994 J.WILES1 [Jeff] at 22:17 CDT Dan, If my CD Rom wasn't an internal unit, I'd send it out to you right away. I seem to be having problems with CDs that never occured before upgrading to Neo4. Tonight is the first night that I have used my CD Rom since upgrading to Neo4 last week. I am experiencing the same problem Al mentioned, copying folders from CD to HD, which BTW was also a problem with Neo 3.04. That problem isn't so bad as you can work around it, though it is an inconvience. The other problem that I am having with CD Rom is when I try to open certain folders on the Gemini CD, I get anywhere from 3 to 8 bombs and the computer locks up. Neo4 does not even intercept this crash. (For those of you who want to try this and see if it is a REAL problem or just my setup, on the Gemini CD: 1) open the FILES folder 2) open the MUSIC folder 3) open the MOD_ST folder After the 3rd step, my computer locks up. Could someone let me know how this works with their system?) Could it have something to do with so many files in a folder as there are over 150 files in this folder. Also, in Neo 3.04, we had to set how many files would show in a window. Do we not have to do this anymore? I can't find where to configure this but have never gotten the old message MORE FILES THAN ALLOCATED in the info portion of the window. *Try this a few times as it worked OK once tonight but every other time it locked me up. I don't know where the problem lies but if I run Atari's desktop, I do not have this problem. If I run Geneva without Neo4 and open files with Geneva's file selector, I do not have this problem. If I run my normal setup, Geneva.....ExtenDos..etc., with Neo4, I have problems when accessing the CD from the desktop. For the sake of space, I didn't list my Auto's and Acc's but if you want to see them, let me know. Jeff PS: GREAT programming though! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 91 Fri Sep 02, 1994 K.BALLANTYNE [Kit] at 21:52 MDT I ordered NEODESK 4 from a very reputable and nice Atari dealer many months ago and was promised that they would ship it to me just as soon as they got it in stock, so my question to you is, have you guys shipped it to the stores yet? Does everyone else have it and my faith in my dealer is holding me back? I am using Geneva and will probably go ape if I don't get my NEODESK 4 soon, but I don't want to back out on my word to my dealer (in another state) that I would buy it from him. I am using TerraDesk while I wait. Parts of it I love and other things make me crazy. Having Geneva means I had to give up my TOS 2.06 desktop. When can we all expect shipments from our Atari dealers? ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 92 Sat Sep 03, 1994 J.WILSON103 [J_Dub] at 00:19 CDT >I ordered NEODESK 4 from a very reputable and nice Atari dealer many months >ago and was promised that they would ship it to me just as soon as they got it Me too, although only a short time ago..applies to me also. >When can we all expect shipments from our Atari dealers? I echo this question. J_Dub ~~~~~ Saturday, September 3, 1994 12:06:40 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 93 Sat Sep 03, 1994 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 02:48 PDT Dan, I reread my post as it went out and realized just how mis-stated it was. Here's a play-by-play.... I create a group and copy files into the group. The files are represented by really cool 16 color icons. But the file names are the usual 8.3 kinda thing. I select CHANGE ITEM to identify the item by a cool 20 chaacter name, but suffer the loss of the cool <custom> 16 color icon. Instead, I get the standard "*.PRG" icon. In what I thought would be a really creative way of fixing the problem, I moved an icon to the desktop, renamed it (retaining the cool 16 color icon) and _then_ moved it into the group... Uh-uh. Reverts to the 8.3 filename. Shucks. Buffalo Bob ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 94 Sat Sep 03, 1994 C.SAGGAU [CHUCK] at 10:14 PDT It seems that everyone is receiving their NeoDesk 4. I ordered mine back in May, how far are you through your backorders now? It would be nice to see what everyone is so excited about... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 95 Sat Sep 03, 1994 B.MENAGH at 13:17 EDT I have installed Neo4 and am enjoying the benefits of the improvements. I followed the instructions regarding usage with Geneva (I have v003). When I try to boot Geneva so that Geneva runs Neo4, I get the message: Version 3.04 of NEOLOAD.PRG must be prersent in order for this version of NEODESK.EXE to run. I have directed Geneva to the NEODESK4 folder (SHELL C: ...) by the GEM.CNF file. I believe I have done everything correct but obviously I have missed something since other comments indicate other users are using Geneva and Neo4 quite well. Could someone suggest what I do to solve this difficulty? Thanks in advance for the help. Bill. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 96 Sat Sep 03, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 20:21 EDT Buffalo Bob, I understood you the first time around. But I guess that is because I was disappointed by the very same thing (loosing the custom icons in groups when you change the name as it appears in the group window). I think Dan knows of it now. -= Lou =- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 97 Sat Sep 03, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:55 EDT Kit - I know it's hard to wait, I'm terrible at it. Nevertheless, they've just recently started shipping Neo4, and to answer one of your questions... no, not everyone else has it already. (I don't!) I know it _is_ shipping, and I'm sure Dan and the other Grib's are doing the very best they can. Hey, if I can handle the wait (just), anyone should be able to! <G> Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 98 Sat Sep 03, 1994 J.WILES1 [Jeff] at 21:01 CDT Dan, Forget what I said about system lock ups when accessing folders on the Gemini CD Rom. I tried again this morning and tonight and have had no problems at all. Apparently I had something screwy in my system last night. Cold booting must not have been clearing out the memory as I constantly locked up my system when accessing folders on the CD. But today, all is well. Go figure. Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 99 Sun Sep 04, 1994 H.WOLFE1 [Harvey] at 00:26 EDT Dan, I have trying out the demo of Neodesk4 and I now have a few questions and requests. 1. Neodesk4 allows the use of lowercase shadow names. However, when sorting, filenames starting with a lowercase letter are put at the end of the directory. Wouldn't it be better if they were put after the related uppercase letter. 2. When I do a search and create a search results group, there doesn't seem to be any way to manipulate it, e.g. I create a group with shadows of all my files with a BAK extension. However, it is then impossible to delete the files. I can only delete their shadows. That's perfectly logical when I create a regular group. However, search results groups would be far more useful if I could then delete or move the files that the shadows are linked to. 3. When searching, it would be convenient if I could select one, or even all the drives, without having to select them on the desktop first, i.e. frequently, it would be much more convenient if there was a separate dialog box for selecting drives, including an option to select all drives examples of this are in Diamond Edge and in Maxifile). 4. It was my impression that the Neodesk4 was going to allow windows to be iconicized. If it does, I don't see any way of doing this in the demo. 5. As far as I can tell, if I rename a file in Neodesk, it's shadows aren't aware of the change. I assume that the same thing happens if a file is moved. Obviously, if I do it outside of Neodesk, I wouldn't expect Neodesk to know. On the other hand, if I do it in Neodesk, I think that it would be much more convenient if Neodesk would keep track of these changes. If that isn't feasible, then could Neodesk at least pop up a dialogue box with an option to call the file selector so that the file could be located. That would be far more convenient than an alert box saying TOS error 33. 6. One of my programs is crashing under the Neodesk4 demo. While I don't think that Neodesk has anything to do with it, I noticed that it will display the registers after the crash. Is there any way to save this information to disk as a text file? Thank you, Harvey Wolfe ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 100 Sat Sep 03, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 22:53 MDT B.MENAGH, Make sure you have NEOLOAD.PRG in the Auto folder and that it is the version that came with NEODESK4. Make sure that you do not have any other RSC files, etc. left in the root directory. Also make sure that your NEWDESK.INF or DESKTOP.INF file does not have a statement left in it telling the computer to Autoload Neodesk3. If you are using a boot manager make sure that it has not overwritten the GEM.CNF file in your GENEVA folder or placed a GEM.CNF in the root directory. By the way, if you used Geneva's install program to add the shell statement to your GEM.CNF file it will have placed it very close to the top of the file. If that is the case, once you get everything setup properly and try booting you will get 2 bombs just before the desktop appears. The fix is to move the shell statement to just after the `run c:\geneva\setmouse\setmouse.prg' statement. Hope this helps you track down the problem. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 101 Sun Sep 04, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:04 EDT Jeff, The problem with the Gemini CD is not caused by Neo 4 but by ExtenDOS. A recent upgrade to ExtenDOS fixes this. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 102 Sun Sep 04, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:44 EDT Bill, Do you own a previous version of NeoDesk? Did you delete all the old NeoDesk 3.x (or 2.x) files, or save them in an archive so they were out of the way? If you have an older NEOLOAD in your auto folder or somewhere else and it is being run, you'll get that kind of message. Tom's advice is also very accurate (thanks, Tom!); I've seen a lot of botched installations in which a boot manager is interfering with the loading of Neo 4 (and of previous Neo versions, too, of course). I made my own boot manager, and I'm much happer with it than with any of the others. :-) Jeff W., Check the ExtenDOS settings (or upgrade if you haven't). Others reported the same kind of oddities with the Gemini disk, and had times when it worked fine for no reason. Harvey, As my review of STree noted (GEnie Lamp, recent issue), a utility that searches so competently AND lets you do copies, moves and so on can be very handy. It would be great if Neo 4 had the feature you asked about in regard to using the search window to move items or delete them, but at this time your best bet is to use STree in conjunction with Neo 4. Basically, I see the search function in Neo 4 as a way of creating groups, not a way of seeking and destroying items. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 103 Sun Sep 04, 1994 D.HADLAND at 10:10 PDT In response to my previous message I have some corrections and answers. 1. The snap to grid does not help in finding all graphic icons in the group window. I get only 11 of 14 icons. I reduced the amount of icons and still was short three icons. 2. I am not usinf copyfix from ICD, but I think I was Premature on the problem of file copying over old files. 3. I stated I had problems with NEO Control Panel. My fault, I was usinf the old one (Sorry). 4. I did increase size of the JAR.PRG in my auto folder to 15. This seemed to help somewhat. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 104 Mon Sep 05, 1994 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 19:49 EDT Dan, I am using both NeoDesk 4 and Geneva Release 3 and have noticed an irritatiting problem when launching either QuickCIS or STraight FAX from a NeoDesk Group window. The application program launches and works fine, but the NeoDesk Group window overdraws the application's initial screen display. At first, I though that if I changed a flag setting in Geneva, I could cure the problem, but none of the flag settings that I tried to change helped. Do you have any insight on how I could configure NeoDesk 4 (or Geneva) to fix this problem? ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 105 Mon Sep 05, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:43 CDT Mike -- >irritatiting problem when launching either QuickCIS or STraight FAX from a >NeoDesk Group window. The application program launches and works fine, but >the NeoDesk Group window overdraws the application's initial screen display. I'm running QuickCis from a group window under both Neo4 and Geneva 003 and don't have that problem. However, I'm running QuickCis as NOT Multitasking. Maybe that'll make a difference. Don't have STraight FAX, so I can't comment on that one. ~+~+~+~+~+ Dan -- I've been meaning to comment for a week: I'm really impressed at how much faster Neo4 is able to switch the colors when you click on a previously inactive window to activate it. Thanks for that. Generally, I really and truly love Neo4. Some neat, neat programming. Thanks. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 106 Mon Sep 05, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 23:26 CDT Just discovered something very interesting about icon editing for 4 color icons. As discussed previously, 2-color icons produce pixel junk when they're converted into 4-color icons. However I noticed that, while the *DATA* is hozed up, the mask does indeed translate. Perhaps a clue for you, Dan. Now I also discovered a way to create 4-color icons from existing 2-color icons. It's kind of an involved process, but it does work. First, clear the mask of your 2-color icon. Then use the DATA-->MASK feature to directly copy the data to the mask. Use the COPY function to copy the 2- color mask, change to 4-color, switch to MASK, and PASTE the copy. Now switch to BOTH and just "trace" over the mask with whatever colors you want. When you've successfully traced over the mask (which was really the data from 2- color), use the BLUR function to blur the mask out. And Voila! You've just created a 4-color icon from a 2-color icon... albeit the long way. (Can you tell I'm bored on a Labor Day evening?) -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 107 Tue Sep 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:52 EDT Mike, Try using a macro to launch those two apps. I'll bet the overlap will go away. al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 108 Tue Sep 06, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 19:00 EDT Gerry, Naw, I expect the mask to translate. It stays the same number of bitplanes (1) and just gets copied. Thanks anyway, though. Mike S, I only have STFAX here, and I tried it but did not see anything unusual. Is this group window the only one open? Can you give a better description of what it looks like? Al, Take a look at my response "2." below. Filtering can be pretty darn powerful. Harvey, 1. Well, this was a matter of preference. I knew there was no way I could possibly please everyone in this respect, but I didn't see the sense in making something so trivial an option. So, I just opted for the approach which sorts faster. 2. You can copy or move items in a group and have that effect the physical file. Deletes don't work this way (a delete operation deletes the item from the group but not the physical file) to avoid the possibility of accidentally deleting something with the name "FUBAR.PRG" on it when the file it points to is actually named "FOO.PRG". It's too easy to make mistakes. We had this same debate back in the NeoDesk 1.0 days with files on the desktop. You *can* do the equivalent thing to what you want by dragging all of the items in a window to the trashcan and using a Filtered Delete. It will only delete the matching items. 3. This is a matter of interface. One method is better for some circumstances, and another is better for others. This is not likely to change, since the way it is now is consistent with the desktop metaphor. 4. Windows cannot be iconized in the current version. It will probably be added in the future. 5. Automatic reassigning of moved/renamed items is not likely to ever be done, due to the complexity involved. Adding an item selector is something that will probably be in a future version; it's been on my list for a while. 6. Saving the register dump to disk would not be reliable to do, just because of the nature of system crashes. However, someone has already made the suggestion to allow it to be printed, which I should be able to do. Bill M, Check the NEOLOAD.PRG in your AUTO folder. Is it the same size as the one in your NEODESK4 folder? Chuck, Yours went out this afternoon. Buffalo Bob, Yup, that definitely seems to be a problem. I'll see if that can be fixed in the next version. Kit & J_Dub, Your dealer is probably ordering from one of the distributors, and they are going to be getting their shipments sent out *after* all of the other orders we have, in about 1-2 weeks. We put a very large dent in the backorders this long weekend, but there are still more to go. We had folks in there from November of last year when we started shipping. Jeff Wiles, The number of files/folder is handled dynamically by NeoDesk 4. You don't have to set it because it's unlimited. (OK, it might break after 32767 items, I'd have to check <smile>.) If you start getting the problems again, you might want to see if perhaps you are reaching the 40-folder limit. I don't know how the drivers handle this (or if they bypass it completely). Try pressing Shift-Esc to force a media change between the steps in your list. Tom C, That's odd about the priveledge violation error. You might want to double- check to be sure you don't have some of your version 3 files still getting used. Checking the dates on NEOCNTRL.ACC and NEOQUEUE.ACC would be the best way to tell. I do know that there definitely seems to be a bug when running it as a DA when Geneva is not present, but I get the feeling that in your case it is. Yup, you're right about the NEOPATH sentence being wrong. It should look like: setenv NEOPATH=C:\NEODESK4 I'll take a look at the icon editor when using it in a window. I vaguely recall seeing problems with this, but I thought I had fixed them some time ago. I'm still mystified about the SETMOUSE thing, but I'll see if I can reproduce it. Yes, the macros will work that way until Geneva 004 is out. (Don't ask, I'm not sure when yet! We're still working on upgrades here.) Matt, Yours was one of the ones we just did. It's either going out today or tomorrow. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 109 Tue Sep 06, 1994 B.MENAGH at 19:12 EDT Thanks for the suggestions re getting Geneva to find the correct version of NEOLOAD for NEO4. I thought I had already done that both through the installation programs for GENEVA and NEO4 as well as checking the file sizes manually and changing the SHELL command in the GEM.CNF fil;e. I will take the suggestions and try again. Thanks again. Bill. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 110 Tue Sep 06, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 19:28 EDT Gerry, Yup, I had discovered the same thing, that is how I have been upgrading all my 2 color icons to 16 color icons. Dan, I believe this is a problem with icon colors when in 32k colors using the CDII card. Is this a known bug or something. If I edit icons in that mode, my color palette is messed up. Also, all my icons are using the proper colors I assigned them in 32K. This problem seems to be only this color mode and so far it seems to only effect icons (all other dialogs, programs, etc show the proper color). I still have an occasional problem of icons disappearing off my desktop. I have 4 megs of TT RAM and the last time it happened, I checked my RAM, and I had 2.5 Megs free in TT RAM (running Neo in TT RAM), so I am not sure why this happens. I can restore the icons easily enough if I reload my Neo INF file. -= Lou =- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 111 Tue Sep 06, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:26 EDT Dan, Thanks, I needed that! I'll be checking the incomming! <G> /s ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 112 Tue Sep 06, 1994 J.TURCOTTE [JARL T.] at 21:40 MDT I think I've found another problem. When a window is open showing files and I hit tab I get the hi-lighting bar as was stated for groups, if I type a letter the bar moves to the first file that starts with that letter.(this is not the problem) If the file I try to find starts with a key I have set for a macro, the macro runs. for example my macro to run aladin is lower case 'g' I open a partition that has a path as follows "\PICTURES\GIFS", type "p" and the hi- light bar go's to PICTURE,return opens this folder,type "g" and the aladin macro exicutes. I love this method of launching Programs and I think it would be nice if macros could be disabled when a file is hiilighted this way. Jarl is out of here... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 113 Tue Sep 06, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 23:42 MDT Dan, I've checked the dates and sizes of all my Neodesk 4 files and there is no problem there. The strange thing is that it works fine with XCONTROL.ACC. It's just NEOCNTRL.ACC and NEOQUEUE.ACC that cause the problem. Thanks for the confirmation on the NEOPATH statement. That is exactly what I have been using. Looking forward to Geneva 004. You've been a busy boy this last year. Thanks for making Atari computing more fun and productive. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 114 Wed Sep 07, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 05:54 EDT OK, Dan, I'll check that 32,767-file-limit issue for you. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 115 Wed Sep 07, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 21:43 EDT Dan, If my ND4 isn't shipped yet, (g) I'd also like the binder version of the manual. thanks Frank G. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 116 Wed Sep 07, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 21:50 CDT Dan, Received Neo4 today. Thanks for your efforts. All I need to do is find the time to finish reading the manual, and then doing an install. :^) Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 117 Wed Sep 07, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:24 CDT Ok, now that I've got this icon editing bug (it only comes once in a blue moon), I've got a few questions: - My default icon file automatically saves as NEOICONS.NIC (right?) and I can't save it as any other name. Other than copying the file and renaming it, is there a way to save it as something else? - My default icon file also contains all sorts of odd shapes and drawings (a paperclip, the "icon" symbol, triangles, etc.) Are these necessary for the proper cosmetic appearance of NeoDesk, or are they just "thought starters/graphic elements"? - Is there a way to save the "EDIT ICON" desktop (the one that appears after selecting that option) so that my harddrive icons and open window are placed where *I* want them? If so, I can't seem to find it. I've gotta say: even in 4-color Medium Res, having color icons -- and icons that change when selected -- is pretty darn cool. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 118 Thu Sep 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:48 EDT Jarl, Do you mean you have macros that use unshifted keyboard keys? (Not alt-G or something?) I'd stay away from macros like that. Use fkeys or alt-shift combos whenever possible. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 119 Thu Sep 08, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:48 EDT Gerry, Yes, NeoDesk always uses NEOICONS.NIC for its icons. You can create another NIC file at any time, though, by selecting the window menu entry with that name. Then, you can copy icons to/from this window to your heart's desire. The only reason your default icon file would have those unwanted shapes is if you put them there. If you take a look at the NEOICONS.NIC that is on the mater disk, you won't find any of those things. Generally, the icons in NEOICONS.NIC should always have a valid template underneath them, otherwise they get ignored and just take up space in the file. Nope, the positions of the icons in the icon editor cannot be saved. Frank, Sorry, yours already went out. Tom, One thing that does seem to be a problem: do you have a Falcon? If so, then (due to a system call that was supposed to work but doesn't) you may get some spurious "Illegal AES Call" alerts when either NEOCNTRL or NEOQUEUE first run. Maybe this is related to your problem. Al, Have you ever seen any problems with the color palette in 32K mode getting messed up when editing icons like Lou has? Lou, I'm thinking that the color palette getting messed up may be a result of TKR's 32K drivers. Try it again once you get the disk I just sent you. I still don't have any idea about the icons disappearing. Jarl, You should re-assign your macros so that they use some combination of Control, Shift, or Alternate. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 120 Thu Sep 08, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:39 EDT *Hot* Damn! "Saddle up the stove, Mother, I'm riding the range tonight!!!" I just received Neo4 in the mail. Installed it without a hitch, but have noticed a few things I'm not wild about. Not sure if it's my error, or not. 1) When I drag a file to the GEM trashcan, with confirm deletes on, the dialog box doesn't show the name of the file being acted on until _after_ you click OK, at which point it's too late to change your mind. 2) I can find no way to get all my 3.04 Macro's into Neo4. This, is maddening. Just running INF_LOAD did not bring in the Macro's. 3) As has been posted, and stated before, INF_LOAD.NPG did something odd with the 3.04 .INF conversion. I reloaded many of my old icons already, but some of the ones I had outlined to make 3D, now show up reversed. (icon only, title bar is ok) I tried using the DATA->MASK from within the Icon Editor, but it did nothing. Is there something special I'm not doing? Will I need to actually go in and redraw them pixel by pixel? It was easy to do in Neo3.. just select Mask or Data and assign the color. Change was instantanious. That does not happen now. On my system, I must physically change each pixel. Well, that's it for the moment. Got to get back to reading the manual, and playing around. Hope when I boot up in the morning, all my previous problems (as posted) will be a thing of the past! Thanks to Dan, Rick and all for an outstanding effort! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 121 Thu Sep 08, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:46 EDT Al, You devil! Just saw all those ICONS you uploaded. That may make my problem with the 3.04 -> 4.0 icon conversion moot. Addendum to last post: Re: Icon Editor... Drat! I'm having a tough time putting into words what I'm trying to do. In the editor, an area apears white. (ST High) It actually comes out as transparent on the desktop. How can I add white lines in there? Selecting the white color and redrawing/saving seems to have no effect. (unless I'm changing black to white, then it shows white.) Also, I can't seem to find in the manual what the last two items are in the bar that let's us select Pixel, line, fill or ?? Other than that... I Love it! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 122 Thu Sep 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:01 EDT Gerry, Here's my method of editing and creating icons. I copy NEOICONS.NIC to another folder and edit it there. I do this because since it it no longer the system icon file, I can save it every now and then and keep working on it. Then, when I am through, I exit Neo 4 and copy the new icon file over to the Neo 4 directory, then rerun Neo 4. (Don't copy that system file while Neo 4 is running; unexpected results may occur.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 123 Thu Sep 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:45 EDT Dan, No, I haven't seen any icon-editor problems like Lou has reported. Matt, The icon editor is much more powerful than the old one. You may have to shake off the old habits (I was also a pro at the old one, but now I am a pyro at this one). The cut & paste features are spectacular. Masking will do what you want as far as the white areas, from what I discern from your question, BTW. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 124 Thu Sep 08, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:37 CDT Dan -- I don't mean to belabor this, but I'm not sure I understand: > Yes, NeoDesk always uses NEOICONS.NIC for its icons. You can create another >NIC file at any time, though, by selecting the window menu entry with that >name. Then, you can copy icons to/from this window to your heart's desire. Don't know what "window menu entry with that name" means if I haven't yet created the file with the new icons in it. I.e. The only NIC file I have is NEODESK.NIC . Now I want to put some of the default icons into a new file. How do I create the new file? Thanks. Having a gas with this feature. =_=-=-=-+-=-+-+-+- Matt -- >transparent on the desktop. How can I add white lines in there? Selecting >the white color and redrawing/saving seems to have no effect. (unless I'm >changing black to white, then it shows white.) That's because you need to have a MASK behind the white (which masks out the color of the desktop. Select MASK and I'm sure you'll see what the problem is instantly. >Also, I can't seem to find in the manual what the last two items are in the >bar that let's us select Pixel, line, fill or ?? The last box is (if I remember right) "fill the box with the selected color." The mouse then lets you draw a box to be filled in. I'm not certain what the "white" box is myself... COULD be "draw a box" -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 125 Thu Sep 08, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:56 EDT Well, I did it again. The hour or so I played with the Icon Editor wasn't enough I guess. Seems I just realized if I put the Data in the window, select toggle, the last option in the Pixel,Line,Fill,?,? row, and then draw the box around the entire window... I get exactly what I need! All pixels are toggled in color. (2 color) Hmmphh! Al, I guess your close association with Dan on Neo4 has rubbed off. It's usually only after sending an urgent post to _you_ that I finally figure out what I need to do. <G> By the way - The Al's Buttons Icons you U/L'd are teriffic. Not for ST High though! Sheesh, I gotta get a card. At least an AlberTT. So, sorry all for perhaps being a bit too quick to seek help. I'm sure though that if I hadn't, I'd _still_ be searching for a way to do it! Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 126 Thu Sep 08, 1994 R.MERIANO at 21:27 PDT DAN, Thanks for the Great upgrade! I enjoy the new version of NeoDesk. Robin Meriano ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 127 Thu Sep 08, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 23:28 MDT Dan, Sorry, I don't have a Falcon (wouldn't mind one though) so that theory doesn't fit. I have a Mega ST2 upgraded to 4 meg of ram, with TOS 2.06, a High Density Drive conversion, Turbo 25 Accelerator board and ATSpeed C16 emulator. I have both a monochrome and colour monitor, switched through a Monitor Master, but I predominantly use the monochrome. That is my home system. At the office I have a TT with 4 meg of ST RAM and a TT colour monitor. I have tried stripping out other Auto-folder programs and Accessories to see if they are the culprits, but to no avail. I'll keep experimenting and until you find something. Thanks for the great support Dan. I hope you know how much we all appreciate it. By the way, Dan, I have also had problems with disappearing icons on occasion. I haven't pinned it down yet, but I think it may be related to exiting certain programs. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 128 Fri Sep 09, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:40 EDT Oh my goodness... He's back... again! Yes folks, it's true. I'm back and I'm flusterated! <G> The systems been behaving well since the Neo4 install, we'll see what it's like in the morning, but for now I can't seem to get the recoverable trashcan to work right. I followed both the manual and the readme and did the .NPI thing. Each time I put a file into it, I get a 3 bomb crash. After a reboot, the deleted file is in the NeoTrashcan, but deleting it also causes a bomb-out. Oh, also... sometimes when I exit the Icon Editor I lose some of my desktop icons! Reloading the .INF file brings them right back, but it's sort of crazy making. (and I'm only a hop, skip and a jump away from there anyway!) Assistance requested please. (Soo, what else is new?!) Thanks again, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 129 Fri Sep 09, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 03:11 EDT Addendum to Trashcan post: I was wrong. The system _does_ give me a 3 bomb crash when I pass a file to the Recoverable Trashcan, but after a reboot, when I open the trashcan and delete the file from there, it does _not_ crash. Still Lost in Larchmont... Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 130 Fri Sep 09, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 05:37 EDT Next on the agenda.... Hello... what's this? Neo4 doesn't save different Icons for the different resolutions anymore? The ST High icons are much too big to be used in Low rez, but whatever I load into Low shows up in Hi as well. Am I missing something, or is this something your not planning to change? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 131 Fri Sep 09, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 05:48 EDT Gerry, Select the icon editor from the Neo 4 menu. Open a drive and a folder. You'll then see the menu item to create a NIC file. You can't create a NIC file unless you have a window open to a drive's root directory or to a folder. Matt, Get a CDII. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 132 Fri Sep 09, 1994 D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 06:39 CDT Al, >OK, Dan, I'll check that 32,767-file-limit issue for you. :-) Al, don't forget to put them in a folder nested 98 levels deep <G> Damon ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 133 Fri Sep 09, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:18 EDT Gerry, What Al said. <smile> Matt, 1. This is the way all other versions of NeoDesk, and Atari's desktop work. The problem is that there's no good way to list 50 files if that's how many you drag <smile>. 2. Macros from version 3 cannot be converted to version 4 format. it's just too different. 3. The appearance of the icons themselves has nothing to do with INF_LOAD. What you are most likely experiencing is the difference in the way the mask gets used with the new type of icons. You probably have to edit your imported icons slightly to get them to look right. You'll find that you can get a much better effect with the separate selected appearance, compared to the old method. Use a Fill operation to change the pixels to the color you want. To make a white area, draw a mask pixel (x). Page 123, just below the middle of the page, the paragraph there describes the other drawing tools you were asking about. I've had one or two other people who have reported problems with the recoverable trashcan, but of course I can't reproduce them. Is there just one item in the 'can? Is it several folders deep, or does it do the same thing if the file is in the root? There are no longer independent icons for each resoution, they are now broken up by number of colors. In general, most people will use the 2-color icons in ST High, the 4-color ones in ST Medium, and the 16-color ones in ST Low. If you want to get something more like what you describe, you can either create 16-color icons for ST Low, or you can use a program like XBoot to specify a different NEOICONS.NIC for the rez you are going into. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 134 Fri Sep 09, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:05 EDT Argghhh! ---------- The next chapter... Powered up about 10:30 this morning. Went all the way up to loading the Neo4 desktop, then said it could not locat .INF file, but used the default so I did get to the NeoDesktop. I tossed the .INF file and created another, then shut down. As I only seem to have the problem after the machine has been down for at least 5 hours I tried hard, and succeeded at keeping away form it until 3:30 pm. Power up... a two bomb crash and a message about _some_ Neodesk file I was too apoplectic to read. A stab at the return key and I'm at G's NoDesk. One reboot and all is fine. I powered down again for 20 minutes and as expected, no problem at boot up. It doesn't seem that this is a Neo4 problem, since it was also happening under 3.04. (sorry to bring it here!) Guess I'll see what the folks have to say in the other areas tonight, and if nothing else comes up, I'll reinstall _both_ G and Neo4 from scratch. If that doesn't do it, it's back into duty for the old 2.05 chips, and these 2.06's go off to Toad for checking. Hmm, a last minute thought. Could where NEOLOAD is located in the AUTO folder cause a problem? Is it better if it's early or late? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 135 Fri Sep 09, 1994 D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 21:07 EDT Goodness, Dan! (Got my ND4 two days ago and just came up for air! Gasp!) However, I'm not quite speechless yet.... You know, if I were to dream a little bit here, if ND4 had TCP/IP support and FTP and SLIP and and and.... Wait a minute, doesn't MWindows take up 4 - 6 Mbytes of HD space? And ND4 takes up around 0.5 Mb... good God what a comparison. Ain't no way I'm giving up my Atari, btw, Dan just how regular do you want these upgrade payments, hhhmmm? This is a subscription, right? :>) You deserve whatever Gates is getting, call him & tell him I said so. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 136 Fri Sep 09, 1994 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 20:15 PDT Dan, Just a note to let you know my Neo 4 made it safely to the bush today! <G> Thanks very much. Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 137 Sat Sep 10, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:45 EDT Thanks for the info Dan, I don't know... it seems the more I learn, the less I know. -=-=-=-=- Al, Have you been able to create a new macro in Neo4 to close all open windows, that won't wind up with the 'desktop has changed' message? Will running a Macro that gives that message after it's executed hurt anything? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 138 Sat Sep 10, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:51 EDT Damon, Why stop at 98? :-) Matt, Neoload can go anywhere. It needs to run before the DAs initialize, which means any place in the AUTO folder is fine. You have a hardware problem. Sim, Dan is already making close to what Bill Gates is making. He gave me a ride in his Lexus at the CAF show. His Rolls was in the shop getting the third cellular phone installed. Matt, Yes, you can make a macro that closes all open windows. Open 7 windows, start recording a macro, and press Ctl-W 7 times. End the macro. It will close all open windows when it runs. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 139 Sat Sep 10, 1994 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 02:30 PDT Atari-ST RoundTable Category 17, Topic 4 Message 135 Fri Sep 09, 1994 D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 21:07 EDT Goodness, Dan! (Got my ND4 two days ago and just came up for air! Gasp!) However, I'm not quite speechless yet.... You know, if I were to dream a little bit here, if ND4 had TCP/IP support and FTP and SLIP and and and.... Simulator, > You deserve whatever Gates is getting, call him & tell him I said so. Terrific line, and so true. Gates may smile because he's filthy rich, but at least Dan can sleep at night, knowing that he is providing a service and not a curse... Buffalo Bob ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 140 Sat Sep 10, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 13:03 EDT Sorry gang, longish post ahead Hi Dan, I just got ND4 on Thursday & I'm having a great time. I've gotten about a third through the manual so far but have been all over the prg. There's just a few things however, a few bugs & comments: Bugs: - The window Cycle button doesn't work on the "oldest" open window - After deleting a file with the Taskman acc, it asks a 2nd time to delete a file, then deletes the TRASHCAN.ACC file itself. - When doing a Show Info on an OPEN folder, I get 2 bombs when exiting with "OK" but not when exiting with "CANCEL". But when I select a folder w/o opening it & do a Show Info, no problem. Also no problem with a Show Info on an open root directory. - I think it was already mentioned here, but there's a problem converting desk icons & colors from an older .INF file. - Also mentioned was the Macro problem (the "the desktop has changed" thing). In ND3 I had a macro that closed all windows (^W - 7 times). If there were less than 7 windows open, no problem. But in ND4 if there is less than 7 windows open when I use that same macro I get that changed desktop message. Is this the same problem? Comments: - In the icon editor, could you add the cycling thing to View & Draw like you used on the Colors (2,4,16)? - could you add Flip on x-axis &/or y-axis to go along with Rotate in the icon editor? - In the icon editor, could you change the Image Clear so it either clears data only (most intuitive), or ALWAYS prompts for what to clear. Currently when "DATA" is selected in the top right, Image Clear prompts you, while Mask Clear clears the mask. But when "BOTH" is selected in the top right, Image Clear clears everything while Mask Clear STILL clears the mask only (once again, most intuitive). Or better yet, have 3 selections in the menu (and keyboard hotkeys) - Data Clear, Menu Clear, and Icon Clear (clear all) and forget the prompting for which to clear. That way it's always CLEAR (g) what you're clearing. (so sorry) - Could we have more than 2 extensions for an installed app? (4-6?) - Could you add "lassoing" of Desktop notes? It would be handy when translating things between resolutions & when changing font point size. - Could you add saving icons to .RSC & IBI/IB3 formats? - In the .INF files, for the dialog coordinates, can you add descriptive words (format,copy,misc,snaptogrid,fileinfo,etc.) instead of "DIALOG" for all? Or if not, could you just give us a list of the respective dialogs here online? - Can LF's be inserted in the .INF file between sections for easier editing? - Is the .GRP file in ASCII format? - Can you add "change one color in icon to another color" to the icon editor? I can see Dan now, "<grumble>, <grumble>, the more I give these people the more they want." Well Dan, if the stuff you gave us wasn't so da*n good, we wouldn't want so much more of it! (gggggg) Many thanks, Frank Goron Gawd, I hope that wasn't as bad as it looked when I ul'd it. I've been haveing trouble uploading files & ASCII. Sorry, Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 141 Sat Sep 10, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 13:37 EDT Thanks to all of you here. It is now painfully obvious that I have some sort of hardware problem. Hoping to narrow it down quickly, I re-installed TOS 2.05 last night and after making sure it booted properly, shut down. Powered up this morning to the same 2 or 3 bomb crash... twice. Replaced 2.06 and booted fine. Of course the machine was slightly warm by then. Guess I'll shut down for a couple hours and try again. Shucks! I _really_ don't want to have to send my CPU away to be looked at. RATS! Guess I'll take this out of the software topics now. <G> Thanks again, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 142 Sat Sep 10, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 14:09 EDT Al, Matt's looking for a macro that shuts down all 7 windows, BUT doesn't gag if there's less than 7 windows open. I think this is related to that "desktop has changed" problem. Matt, I've been having problems with bootups also. It's been going on sporadically for many months. Sheldon Winick has been helping me with this & we believe it has to do with the Syquest being connected to the SCSI port. Didn't you say you had a Syquest? If so, try disconnecting it & see if the problems disappear. In my case, the problems were also worst when the TT was booted after being off for an extended period. And when I eventually got past the bombing, it would be fine for the rest of the session, despite warm,cold boots, turning the TT off & on, autos & accs off OR on. This sounds similar to your description of your problems. When I disconnected the Syquest (which btw works flawlessly) the problem would disappear. But the strange part was that when I reconnected the Syquest the problem would reappear ONLY a couple days later. Sheldon & I are trying any possibilities we can think of before I ship the TT to him, because we slightly disagree as to which piece of hardware is the culprit. Sheldon thinks it's the syquest, & I think it's the TT. Good luck, Matt Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 143 Sat Sep 10, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 15:52 EDT Al, I tried exactly what you said before I posted, but after all the windows close I get the dreaded 'this macro cannot be executed because the desktop has changed' message. I know it said in the doc's that this is a known bug but is most noticable when loading .INF files. Do you think I'm doing something wrong (?!) or am I just being bitten by the bug. I'll presume you've done this successfully on your TT. Perhaps it's a MSTe 'thing'. By the way... any ideas why the Recoverable Trashcan crashes the system (2 bombs) after a delete? Even one small ASCII file. Reboot and the file is in the trashcan, and can be undeleted without incident. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 144 Sat Sep 10, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 16:10 EDT Frank - Hmmm, your problem does sound like mine, and yes I do have a Syquest in the chain. (external, via the SCSI pass thru in an external Supra drive) The odd thing is that all was working together perfectly for 6 weeks, at which point I installed TOS 2.06. Then the 'fun' began. I just re-seated the chips again, and fiddled with the HD ribbon connector. I'll shut down now and power up in a few hours. If the problem still remains, I'll try removing the Syquest. (bummer!) Thanks for the input, (Geez, I just love this place) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 145 Sat Sep 10, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 17:48 EDT Frank, >Matt's looking for a macro that shuts down all 7 windows, BUT doesn't >gag if there's less than 7 windows open. I think this is related to >that "desktop has changed" problem. When I was using Neodesk 4 I used to have a macro recorded exactly in the manner Al described and it worked fine no matter how many windows I had opened when I played it back. ALT W would close all opened windows. Are you saying that this is not working with Neodesk 4. haven't received it yet. John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 146 Sat Sep 10, 1994 LYRE at 17:49 EDT Matt, If I'm not mistaken, yes it does make a difference where NEOLOAD and GENEVA are located in the boot-up process. While I am not currently using either program regularly (insufficient memory), here is my system information and AUTO folder contents. To the best of my knowledge these programs are all in the "proper" place. SYSINFO.TXT [SYSINFO.PRG] (C) 1994 David C. Troy STraight FAX! System Information Thu Sep 08 18:12:34 1994 ------------------------------------------------------------------ TOS and SYSTEM INFORMATION: --------------------------- TOS Version: 2.06 TOS Country: USA TOS Date: November 14, 1991 TOS Start Address: 0xe00000 GEMDOS Version: 0.20 AES Version: 3.20 Max # of Tasks: 1 GDOS Version: Not Installed Machine Type: ST with a 68000 CPU and No FPU Blitter: Installed and Enabled Available ST RAM: 910238 bytes Boot Drive: C Installed Drives: ABCDEFGHIJ Number of Floppies: 1 Screen Resolution: ST Medium 640 x 200 x 4 colors Serial Ports: 1 AUTO FOLDER CONTENTS: --------------------- [NOTE: These are in "No Sort" order I believe.] Auto Path is C:\AUTO\ Filename Length Date Time Flags SUPCLKRD.PRG 4312 08/23/89 22:48 m FOLDR300.PRG 1024 03/01/92 00:02 m JAR015.PRG 856 12/08/92 13:09 frum DMIRROR.PRG 26700 01/11/94 14:30 frum XBOOT.PRG 58098 01/25/94 13:17 fru SERFX20.PRG 5658 12/15/92 11:29 m STFAXMGR.PRX 6551 12/01/93 02:10 m GENEVA.PRX 159743 12/31/93 15:43 frum SPDGDOS.PRX 82875 03/13/93 02:05 f m NEOLOAD.PRX 9714 08/05/94 10:53 frum WARP9_ST.PRX 65156 09/16/93 10:51 f m CODEKEYS.PRG 11284 03/01/92 00:39 m SILKMOUS.PRG 3400 03/16/93 16:31 f m G+PLUS.PRX 9462 03/04/92 22:15 m HOTWIRE.PRG 115186 03/01/91 15:49 m DATADIET.PRX 9742 03/01/92 00:28 f m SCRDMP24.PRX 3748 10/18/88 22:50 m f = Fast Load r = Run In TT RAM u = Use TT RAM for RAM Requests m = Memory Protection The above info obtained via SYSINFO2 by David Troy of TOAD Computers. (This freeware file is available here in the library and gives more info than is shown above.) Once again, thanks David. Lyre 12:27 pm, September 10, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 147 Sat Sep 10, 1994 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 22:11 EDT Gerry, >I'm running QuickCis from a group window under both Neo4 and Geneva >003 and don't have that problem. However, I'm running QuickCis as NOT >Multitasking. Maybe that'll make a difference. Don't have STraight >FAX, so I can't comment on that one. You must not be using QCMSG_II as your message reader in conjunction with Quick CIS then. I tried to run Quick CIS in singletasking mode, but for some reason, I was unable to use QCMSG_II when I did that. Thanks for the input though. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Al, >Try using a macro to launch those two apps. I'll bet the overlap will >go away. Thanks for the tip. I tried it out and as long as the group window is not open when I run the macro, I seems to solve my problem. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Dan, >I only have STFAX here, and I tried it but did not see anything >unusual. Is this group window the only one open? Can you give a better >description of what it looks like? I created a pair of IMG files using a "Snapshot" desk accessory so that you'll be able to see precisely what my screen looks like. I'm sending them to you via GE Mail as a ZIPped file. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 148 Sat Sep 10, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:42 EDT John - Yes, that's what I'm saying. I guess it's still working on Al's TT, so your machines, with their '030 chips may be fine, but not on my unadorned MSTe. Oh it _will_ close all windows on the desktop, but if fewer are open than the 7 used when creating the macro, it delivers the 'Macro cannot be exicuted because the desktop has changed' message. Of course, a click on the box in the dialob box and all is fine, it's just annoying. -=-=-=-=-=- Thanks LYRE. How're you doing? <G> Yes, according to Dan Wilga (I think) as long as Neoload runs after Geneva it's OK. That's where I've got it. I've been swayed by the folks here, and my experiences to believe that this is not a software problem. I'm glad. (almost) It might be easier to fix if it were (just get rid of the software) but I would hate to lose this great boone to Atari computing! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 149 Sun Sep 11, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:27 EDT Well, it seems I have something _new_ to say here. I now get a 2 bomb crash (bus error) when trying to call "Mark-Reply Old Topics" in Aladdin, or selecting Topic from the bottom buttons when reading offline. The same crash occurs when this is attempted from my normally fully laden system, or from a fully clean GEM desktop. (So in this case I _know_ it's not Neo!) <G> I bring it up here for two reasons. First, Neo4 (I think) caught it and gave me the report I list below, and second, because I don't want to spend the $ to write this while online in the Aladdin area. I got the crash info from SYSINFO83 also, from the GEM desktop. If anyone wants to know them I'll post them. BTW - I can still access all other Aladdin functions without problems. Listing from Neo4's report of the Aladdin crash: A Bus Error 2 bombs d0: 65737369 d1: 0000000 d2: 000002A3 d3: FFFFFC7C d4: 00000000 d5: 00000000 d6: 00000000 d7: 00000000 a0: 6573736A a1: 001F176A a2: 0022E4C8 a3: 0022E38C a4: 001FBF12 a5: 65737369 a6: 002E368 (due to the hour this might be 0022E368) a7: 00003DDA instr.: 4A18 sr: 0300 = {t:0 s:0 interupt:011 x:0 n:0 z:0 v:0 c:0} pc: 001EFGD2 I hate being such a pain, but I hate not having my system work as it should more. Prior to writing this post I tried restoring the Aladin folder from previous backups. Same crash. Any ideas? Just what do these numbers mean, anyway? Thanks, Matt PS: I tried to do the 'space thing' here so GEnie wouldn't reformat the text. I hope it worked. <G> MR ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 150 Sun Sep 11, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:44 EDT One more thing... (guilty smirk) While trying to figure out why I can't get the Trashcan.NPG to work without bombing after even a single small file delete, I noticed in the manual it points us to the NeoDesk Accessories and NeoDesk Programs section. I can't find those sections anywhere!? Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 151 Sun Sep 11, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 05:01 EDT Good morning all, Remaining true to my compulsive side, I am still awake at this ungodly hour trying to fix my Aladdin problem. I am pleased to say I have it working again. I had to run Update the Topic list, but it's again working fine. Also, I managed to get the Trashcan.NPG/NPI working. I had to set the environment in the .NPI to PATH=c:,\i:\TRASH. This had it working with no problems so I saved the config. Of course, after a reboot it no longer works.?! The settings are still there. Another thing, I have TrashcanP set not to confirm deletes now, but no matter what I do, it still gives me the confirmation box prior to doing anything. Hoo boy, guess I'll get some sleep now. I've had it. (going) Loony in Larchmont, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 152 Sun Sep 11, 1994 C.SAGGAU [CHUCK] at 07:59 PDT Dan: Got it Friday. Looks great. I'll read the manual before I fill this topic with questions. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 153 Sun Sep 11, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 11:54 CDT Matt, Boy am I a day late and a buck short - I didn't even know (or forgot) there was Neo 4 topic. I have gotten the Trashcan to work both ways, ACC and NPG. I rec'd Neo4 last friday and without this topic managed to conquer the Icon Editor and have even loaded some of my own icons for the TT's RSC file. Dan, I am in awe of my first NeoDesk. Now if only I can get my TT back up and running I'll be a happy camper - I'm sure I have a lot to look for when I can use my 15" NEC in color (G), be like Christmas. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 154 Sun Sep 11, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 12:45 CDT Dan, Matt, There is a conflict with the Trashcan intalled as a Neo Program using NeoDesk4 and Geneva. When deleting a file to the Icon it will save, but, I will get two bombs and a crash. Upon re-booting, and checking the Trashcan the file will be there and is saved, so nothing is lost. This happens on my Mega 4 with a 16Mhz clock with setting (switch) on 16 Mhz and 8 Mhz. This does not occur when running Neo Desk 4 without Geneva. This problem does not occur if Trashcan is used as an ACC. Frank L BTW - Matt, Sleep better, it does seem to be little conflict. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 155 Sun Sep 11, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 14:17 EDT Matt, you sure are having a rough week. ;-) Flat___ ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 156 Sun Sep 11, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 15:13 EDT See Flat, Correct, it's not working properly. The macro DOES close all windows that are open. But if there were less than 7 open, you get the "the desktop has changed" message. There is some sort of problem with macros, and I believe this is one of the ones that produces that problem. Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 157 Sun Sep 11, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 17:58 CDT Anyone wanted to try, I had problems with creating some Macros while running Neo 4 and Geneva and getting the message 'Desktop has changed' (or something like that) and by using Neo 4 without Geneva created some of the same macros and saved, then re- booted with Geneva and the macros created without Geneva did indeed work inside of Geneva. Mmmmm don't know why maybe some additional for Dan to use for debugging or maybe someone can have the same benefits I did. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 158 Sun Sep 11, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 20:36 CDT Dan, Is there any chance that a future version of Neo4 will allow one to select from the entire list of loaded Speedo fonts? Since the list only shows the first eight, I do not have an opportunity to load the mono-spaced font since it is not in the list of available fonts presented by Neo4. This is the first version of Neo that I have owned, and I find it to be a real joy to use. Thanks much for a very fine product. Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 159 Sun Sep 11, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:26 CDT Mike -- >You must not be using QCMSG_II as your message reader in conjunction with >Quick CIS then. I tried to run Quick CIS in singletasking mode, but for some You're right. I picked up that program and then had to upgrade my QuickCIS version. And, somehow, that new version changed some parameter on CIS, and ever since then the program "hangs" instead of hanging up. So I never got around to trying QuickMSG. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 160 Mon Sep 12, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:50 EDT Frank, Glad to hear you got some macro's working. The only one I have not been able to re-create so far is the 'close all windows' one, and even creating that one in Neo4 (run without Geneva) didn't allow me to escape the 'Desktop changed' message. Other than that, and my current hardware problem, Neo4 is tops! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 161 Mon Sep 12, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:06 EDT Lorne, It's actually the first 16 <smile>. I'm considering upping that limit in the version I'm working on right now. Frank L, Re: your machine: I'm working on it... trying my best... Trashcan: I just wish I could reproduce the problem here. I'm going to have to try a few of our other machines. Frank G, o Window cycle: correct. It've already fixed it. o Trashcan: That's an odd one. Are you using it as a DA or as an NPG? o Folder info: You're right. I'll fix that. o INF_LOAD has problems, yes. o I'm going to try to fix the macros somewhat. o I've been considering adding cycle to those other buttons, yes. o Flip? I'll see if there is room in the menus. o I think maybe 3 menu entries might be the best way to go. I'll think about it. o You can have more now just by adding another APPLIC line to your INF file, with just the extensions changed. It's just not convenient to add this to the dialog. o It'd be kind of difficult to allow Notes to even be moved on the fly. Too much code involved. o I'm not likely to ever allow other formats to be saved, sorry. o I mostly left out descriptions of what each DIALOG was to conserve space in the INF file. I'll send you a list by private mail, so as not to clutter this topic too much. o You can insert all the blank lines you want in the INF files. I didn't do it because I wanted to save space. o GRP files are not in ASCII format, and the format is undocumented and subject to change. o I've been considering doing that, yes. Simulator, <smile> Say hello to Bill for me when you talk to him. Matt R, NEOLOAD generally doesn't care where it goes in the AUTO folder. The best thing to do in a situation like this is always to remove everything but NeoDesk and Geneva from your AUTO folder. Remove all of your DA's too. Then see if you still have the same problems. I'll check out the case of trying to close all open windows and see if that gives the same message as other macros. Getting this message doesn't hurt anything at all, it just cancels the macro. A couple of people have mentioned problems with the trashcan crashing, but I still can't get it to happen. I'm going to try a few other systems. I think your crash in Aladdin might be something to do with Aladdin itself. It's of course very difficult to tell for sure, but an educated guess is that one of the files Aladdin uses may be damaged. I don't think this is releated to your other problems. Hm. You may be right about the NeoDesk DA's and Programs section being absent. We're doing an update to the manual now, so I'll see if that needs to be added. The trashcan really doesn't care about any env vars, so I don't think that editing them would have an effect. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 162 Mon Sep 12, 1994 D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 19:58 EDT Okay. (What makes you think I don't? :) ) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 163 Mon Sep 12, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 20:41 CDT Dan, I know you are working on the machine problem - I'm a very 'laid back person for the most part so (with all the getting things back together after Neo 4) I'm not worried so don't you worry it will all work out in the wash. When I get off here I'm going to try some more with the Trashcan thing maybe I can try few more things. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 164 Mon Sep 12, 1994 T.WILKINSON1 [TomWilkinson] at 18:58 PDT Dan, thank-you. I love Neo 4, and the program groups and extended file names allowed within them are a fantastic addition. Some initial problem areas I've seen are: 1. Running Neo4 in a window under Geneva has locked me up on many occasions, particularly right after using desktop notes. 2. Using a macro of ^W shift <drive> shift <drive> to close the current window and open the selected one doesn't work if there is no open window on the desktop. This did work in Neo 3.x 3. Shift <drive> doesn't seem to work at all if Neo is running in a window under Geneva. It just does nothing. I'm not whining, just mentioning what I've found. There are obvious workarounds to the above, with the exception of the lock-ups when running in a window, which I would like to do. This complements Geneva so well, I just think it's fantastic to get this calibre of software when many other companies don't think it's worth developing for ATARI. I wish you immense success, and I hope the other users promote this software within their own communities and clubs, as I will be doing as much as possible on the local bbs's here. BTW, in regard to the problems I mentioned above, they are encountered on a Falcon with Tos 4.04, running 14 megs of memory. Best of luck Tom W. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 165 Mon Sep 12, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 21:11 CDT Dan, That is great news, re:, your considering upping the number of Speedo fonts limit. Keep us posted. Thanks, Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 166 Mon Sep 12, 1994 J.LEMLEY [Jack] at 22:27 CDT Dan, Further update on disappearing icons. From the desktop I went to icon edit and immediately back to desktop with no changes. I then selected Desktop under settings to view new desktop pictures. I left the dialogue box on my screen to go take care of other things. I came back and selected cancel without viewing any pictures. I then pulled WW.PRG off of drive D to install on desktop and saved config. Then I ran WW and upon exit of WW I had lost all desktop prg icons except Word Writer! Hope this helps narrow down the problem. BTW I tried reloading the INF file but the icon damage apparently was already done before I saved config even though the icons were still on the screen before running WW. I have now taken a Default.INF file and put in another directory for safe keeping (I was getting real tired of reinstalling all those desktop icons). TT030, TOS 3.06, 4/4 megs memory, TT med res. Auto folder in run order XBoot JAR10 Pinhead Geneva (release 003) Artsevnt Silkmouse Outburst HSMODEM1 Nosystem NVDI Dmirror UIS III Neoload (Neo 4 version) Resident ACCS in run order Cardfile (v4.xx i think) OBACC Taskman TTartist Xcontrol (v1.31 or current) Thanks Jack ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 167 Tue Sep 13, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:27 EDT Thanks again Dan, Your right, of course, my Aladdin problem _was_ a bad file in the Aladdin folder. I hope you can reproduce the problem with Trashcan when run as an NPG. I prefer to run it that way, though it wouldn't be awful if I had to resort to using it as an .ACC. I don't know if this will help track it down, but I've noticed that on my system, when I drag a file to the TRASHCAN.ACC icon on the desktop, the drive window is not updated. If I then try to undelete the same file, I get the familiar 2 bomb crash. If, however, I use 'Force update' so the window reflects the absence of the file, I can use the Undelete without incident. (does this give you any clues?) Still weeding out my hardware problem, Matt -=-=-=-=- ADDENDUM -=-=- This evening I booted up (normal boot set incl. G and Neo4) with the Control key depressed. Per the manual, this should boot the system as normal but load no .ACC's. Instead, I saw a flash of the NeoDesk4 info screen, then went to G's Nodesktop. Have I missed something? Should booting while holding 'Control' cause Neo4 not to be loaded? MR ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 168 Tue Sep 13, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 03:48 EDT Well, I've got to tell you all that I'm having more trouble with my system this week, than I've had in my 8 odd years using Atari computers. And it's not over yet. Now, it seems I can't boot into Low rez. No matter what I do, I keep getting sent to the Med. rez. screen. Sheesh, I can almost see why so many people leave the platform! Not quite, but almost. I select the Low Rez set up from my boot manager, as I did yesterday when it worked properly, and I'm sent to the Med. rez screen. If I switch to Low rez via the 'Set Video' option in Neo4, it changes without a hitch. It just won't go there on it's own. ARGGHHH! This week I've been on vacation. Some vacation, I've spent almost all my time fussing with the system, or waiting for it to cool down, so I could change something, and reboot! It's like a monkey on my back. I'm really starting to hate it, but I can't give it up! I'm a computer junkie. Help, I've lost my composure and I can't get it back! (tune in later for more of the continuing saga) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 170 Tue Sep 13, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 04:57 PDT Here are some more bugs to add to the NeoDesk-4 list... The "Unload for execute" option does NOT work with "Install application" or .NPI files. Only the "Default" option is valid. Selecting "Yes" or "No" will cause NeoDesk to UNLOAD regardless. The NeoDesk-4 desktop dissappears from the background when running some multitasking programs that NeoDesk-3 worked fine with. This means I have to task-switch back to NeoDesk, where as before I could just click on open windows or icons in the background. Not sure if this is a bug or intentional... with some programs this helps, with others it doesn't. The Neo-4 Control panel "Blitter" icon doesn't work. Fortunately, it defaults to on (which is what I want), but it stays selected when I click on it, and in fact, the info line doesn't even appear for this icon (the others, however, are fine). I would guess it's looking for hardware in the later (030) machines, and gets confused if there's only a blitter? Memory fragmentation is terrible under Neo-4! Neo-4 boots up with fragmentation, while the same configuration of Neo-3 did not. Also, both the "Help" and "Edit Icon" functions fragment memory with Geneva. I went back and fourth between the icon editor and help several times while learning it and ended up with SIXTEEN blocks! (This may be why some people are having icons dissappear?) Even without Geneva, using the "Unload for execute" option and running almost anything will result in fragmented memory after Neo-4 reloads. (And, no, I'm not using "Unload" with Geneva...) These tests were run on a Mega-4 and a 4MB 520STfm with TOS 1.4 with a "clean" boot (no AUTO/ACC except JAR, NEOLOAD, and in the Geneva tests, GENEVA and the Task Manager ACCessory). Neo-4 was set to stay resident under Geneva, and to unload without it. The memory fragmentation is cumulative -- the more you use the system, the more fragmented it becomes, until there isn't enought RAM to run. The fragmentation may be the cause of many odd problems people are having that don't seem to be repeatable. If you don't do the things that cause it, everything works fine. For instance, with Neo-4 set to stay resident (the way it's used under Geneva) programs run and quit just fine. If you use the icon editor repeatedly, however, you will shread your memory and eventually run into problems. On the other hand, with Neo-4 set to unload, running anything will fragment RAM, and every time you run another program it gets worse. After several programs have been run and quit, there may not be enough contiguous RAM left to even reload NeoDesk! Oh, and as long as I'm bitching... I don't like the way the icon editor repositions the desk icons to their default locations. Neo-3 left them wherever they were on the desktop -- which is where I put them and want them! Aloha, from the UnHappy Hacker! (Tim) ... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside! ... NeoDesk-4 outside (temporarily) PS: What happened to "VDI" mode in the INF files settings -- is it automatic now? (If it's in the manual, tell me where...) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 171 Tue Sep 13, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:32 EDT All - I've really got to stop trying to work on my machine during the wee hours of the morning. I found the reason I was unable to boot into Low rez... mia culpa, mia maxima culpa. I had forgotten that while I was searching for settings that might have effected my power up problem, I had switched off Gevena's Misc. settings to take video from Desktop/Newdesk.INF. Geez, what a dolt! <G> You know, I find it absolutely amazing. When I was affiliated with Psychiatric hospitals, I could deal with self destructive or suicidal patients easily. Never lost my 'cool'. But let my computer system exhibit some problems, and I become an obsessed lunatic! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 172 Tue Sep 13, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 18:33 EDT Longish post warning! Hi Dan, Just got my NEO 4 today. There was no registration card in the package so I'm guessing that since it was an upgrade, I don't have to send one in. Now on to questions. I have managed to change the desktop fill pattern to a solid color (purple) but whenever I reload NEO 4 I get the ugly green system color and have to reload colors from the color set up CPX. NEOControl will not save my choice of colors. All I want is a solid color of my choice on the desktop when I start NeoDesk and on the NoDesktop of Geneva. Is that so wrong? What do I have to do to make it happen? I'm off to start the process with a "clean" system and see what happens. Later, JAB OK, it is later and this is what I have found. On a Falcon030 using ICD Pro ver. 6.2.3; Jar20.prg, Neoload.prg in the Auto folder; and NeoControl.Acc as the only accessory; the standard Atari desktop is vibrant green. When I run Neoload again, Neodesk.exe runs and my computer switches into the correct colors for less than 1 second and then switches back to the default colors when it draws the NeoDesktop. If I then change the colors with the NeoControl acc and save the configuration, exit and reload, it goes back to the default system colors. Oh, I am trying to run in 80 column, 16 color, double line off mode on an NEC3D with the Atari VGA adapter. I had hoped that this would be fixed in this version since I had reported the same results with NeoDesk 3.04 earlier this year. Any ideas Dan? This won't stop me from using the program, but I will use it less often. I don't need it as a shell under Geneva, but it will make some things easier to do. Other than that it looks great, and has more features than I'll ever use. Now to restore my system. Oh yeah, I get an "Illegal AES function call" message when I boot with this setup. When I had the printer queue installed too I got two "Illegal AES function call" messages. Later again, Switched to Atari's HD driver ver. 6.05? and no change. It goes purple after the info message and before the NeoDesktop but doesn't stay that way. JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 173 Tue Sep 13, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 19:30 EDT Dan, About the Trashcan deleting itself - Of course I can't reproduce it now But I think it was as a DA when it happened. But now NPG works fine, but when I undelete something with trashcan as a DA I bomb out. This is with a TT 4/4 mb of ram, 3.05 TOS & with NOTHING but ND4 and the Trashcan.acc loaded. I turned off all the program flags in Trashcan, but still the same. On the extensions for Installed Apps, I understand about the problems with adding it in the dialog. But - (No Dan, I'm not giving up on this one so easily <g> ) How about if you have ND4 accept >2 extensions from the INF if found. And then instead of having to add a complete line to the INF we could just add the extensions to existing installed apps. And just have the dialog display the first two it finds in the INF. Can't blame a guy for tryin' Thanks F Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 174 Tue Sep 13, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 19:24 CDT Matt, I'm have a problem with Aladdin with NeoDesk4. How in the world do you find a bad file in Aladdin? Sometimes when I am writting a message (offline) I will get two bombs if I hit the 'Ret' key I get so many bombs I can't count 'em. I had 3 desktop notes on the screen, so I have removed them and as of yet I have not had any bombs, I'll have to stay 'cool' with this to see if it really corrected the problem. BTW after I removed my notes I did try to see if the Trashcan program would work with Neo/Geneva combinanation but with no avail. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 175 Tue Sep 13, 1994 J.LEMLEY [Jack] at 20:34 CDT Happy Hacker, You're right about the memory fragmentation! I just exited Aladdin after reading your message and went in and out of icon edit (didn't try help) with memwatch loaded and I got a new frag everytime. My largest block of TT ram went down about 100k everytime. I have 4/4 megs on a TT. Yo Dan.... Help.......... Jack ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 176 Tue Sep 13, 1994 B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 22:05 MDT I have been frustrated in my attempts to use the NeoDesk Control Panel with NeoDesk 4 and I hope to get some advice here about it. When I load NeoControl along with NeoDesk 4, I consistently experience these annoying problems: 1. Prior to the NeoDesk introductory screen coming up, I get an alert box that tells me that an "Illegal AES function Call" has been made. Hitting Return gets me past this and into the NeoDesk 4 desktop, but I can't figure out what causes this to happen. 2. Loading NeoControl and then trying to print from Atari Works causes a message to appear that, in part, reads: "Invalid handle". The program then hangs, forcing me to reboot. Neither of these problems occur if I don't load NeoControl or if I use the Atari Control panel. Any idea what's going on? I am running NeoDesk 4 on a 4 meg Falcon with math co-processor and have the following AUTO programs loaded in this order: 1. Datalite 2. Falcon8 3. Fpatch 4. Jar10 5. NVDI 6. Screen Blaster 7. SpeedoGDOS 8. Speaker Off 9. X Boot My Accessories are: 1. Drivers 2. NeoControl 3. NVDI configuration 4. Outline fonts NeoLoad is loaded automatically by X Boot. Also, does either NeoQueue or Spooler work to speed up Atari Works printer output? I haven't noticed any difference, but maybe I'm doing something wrong (wouldn't be the first time.....) Any help would be appreciated. Th'Perfesser ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 177 Wed Sep 14, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 00:44 EDT Hi Dan, What can I do to rid myself of the default icons in the Neoicon.nic file? I have grown attached to my animated icons on the Falcon and would like to see them on the desktop still. I was able to load them into the Neoicons.nic (whatever) file but there doesn't seem to be an option for removing your defaults to make way for my choices. Too much improving on a good thing if you ask me. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 178 Wed Sep 14, 1994 LYRE at 01:04 EDT Dan, Just a comment... If the DIALOG info in the INF file might be of use to others, perhaps you would consider uploading it instead. It would save you the hassle of having to respond to multiple requests. Lyre 12:28 am, September 14, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 179 Wed Sep 14, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:29 EDT Frank L. - Do you get the bombs as you are typing the reply, or when you try to save? Is there disk activity at the time? (Hmm, did you say it's when you hit Return?) Re: Finding a bad file in Aladdin... Well, it's like this: My first line of attack is to watch at which point I crash and try to figure which files are being worked with. Of course, if the program won't boot at all, I first try a restore of ALAD.PRG from backup. (I keep and Aladdin icon on my desktop, and there have been times when I double click on it and it seems to start to load but all I get is a flicker in the NeoDesktop and I'm back where I started.) THEN I run MEDIC from Diamond Edge and check the disk for for errors. (view any lost clusters, or back up the drive before fixing the disk if you don't want to loose anything!) Most of the problems I've had have occurred after Aladdin is running. Like bombing out when I try to Mark-Reply messages, either from the menu option or by selecting Topic while reading a message off-line. (Odd, just selecting Reply works fine, but of course if you want to post to an area you haven't gotten any new messages in that won't work!) Anyway, when I've determined it's a file, I will usually check file size against my most recent backup, and check the files for content in an editor. When I had the Mark-Reply problem I noticed that the ATARISTR.TOP and ATARISTR.TMK files were different at their headers than the backup files. (backups were made with PRG working properly) It didn't seem like much, the first letter of the first word was missing. When I tried to add it with the editor, it gave me the message that it would make the first line too long. That's when I decided to just copy over from backup. Besides the constant fragging of the HD that Aladdin does, I really haven't had that many problems with it. More often than not, simply copying over a backup copy of Alad.PRG fixes it. (By the way, I almost _always_ run Diamond Edge after a session with Aladdin to check out how much the data has been fragmented. Usually I optimize to remove frags too.) Hmm, it never entered my mind that the Desktop Notes could be a problem. I keep many on my mono desktop. Shoot, I thought I had my 'first boot' problem licked last night, but NOOOO. It was back again this morning. (First Boot... wasn't that a Stallone movie???!!) <G> If you've never looked at some of the Aladdin files in a text editor you should try it. To a non-programmer (me) it's a wonder how the .PRG makes sense of some of this stuff. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 180 Wed Sep 14, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 01:43 CDT Matt, As I was typing a message to send (offline) it bombs (2), gives me a message 'illegal command hit any key' (or something like that), I hit the 'Ret' key and bombs appear accross the screen. This does not happen all the time but enough to make me gun shy. My aladdin seems to boot ok and no problems (so far) while I'm online. Seems as if the problems begin after I have been on aladdin, but a complete cold boot doesn't seem to help much. Most of the time when this happens I was using the GEN/NEO4 combination, but it has occured running with just Neo. Sometimes just like you it happens while reading messages and once while I was using the Mark/Reply as well as just a 'Reply' within the 'Messages'. Like you I also run "EDGE" after any bombs after or during Aladdin. I did do a back up today and optimized, also re-installed NeoDesk and Geneva (just pulling at straws), however, I still have had no bombs since I removed the 'Notes' from my desktop - waiting - waiting mmmmmm. I have loaded some of the files into 'EdHak', your'e right, it's a wonder Aladdin runs at all (G). I suppose I'll have more goodies awaiting when I get my TT fixed. - In a nutshell sounds like my problem is very simular to yours. Thanks for the fast reply. Frank L BTW - No disk activity and bombs while typing - I know my typing is not to good any way but (G). ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 181 Wed Sep 14, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:56 EDT JAB - If I understand you correctly... To change the default Neo4 icons... go into Edit Icons and click on the icon 'box' on the desktop. Then open the .NIC file that has the icons you want in it. Drag the icon you want and drop it on top of the default icon you want it to replace, and save when you exit the edit screen. Simple! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 182 Wed Sep 14, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 02:01 PDT JAB, While it's true you can't delete the default icons, you can copy over them. Load your icons into the icon editor -- drag them over the appropriate default icon -- then delete the extra copy. Simple. Jack, Try messing with the "Take 100__ Kb at all times" option in the memory dialog. I found a value of 256 solved most of my fragmentation problems (even when unloading). The impression I got from the doc's is that this should only be needed on TOS versions prior to 1.4, but this does not seem to be the case. (Curiously, the option has a default of 100 Kb, but that won't even let Neo-4 load!) Oh well... still learning. So far, the results of using the 256 Kb setting are promising, although a little strange... Set "Take 256__ Kb at all times" and this is what happened: No Geneva - Unload for execute ON --------------------------------- Boot up: Only 1 block now (was 2 with "No limit") Ran STeno: One frag (2 blocks), about 300K drop (?) all subsequent runs okay -- still 2 blocks, but no additional fragging (With "No limit" everything ran added more blocks until system crashed) Tried "Help" and icon editor with no problems either. With Geneva - Unload OFF ------------------------ Boot up: Only 1 block again -- no fragments Ran several programs with no problems Hit "Help" key: Main ST RAM dropped, and 2 blocks now Ran icon editor: Main RAM back to original setting -- NO FRAGMENTS! [insert "Twilight Zone" music here...] Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside! ... NeoDesk-4 (still) outside. *8^) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 183 Wed Sep 14, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 09:41 EDT Frank - Did you say whether you were running Aladdin single or multi-tasking? I don't know that it would make a difference but ??? One other thing I have found with Neo4, that didn't occur under past versions is that some of the system sounds I have assigned via GEMSOUND get cut off and a bit fuzzy just before their end. Odd. Hope you get the TT back soon. At this point, I wish I had the $$$ for one. (Or could find someone to buy what I've got, to lessen the outlay!) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 184 Wed Sep 14, 1994 T.WILKINSON1 [TomWilkinson] at 06:54 PDT J. Bates Re: your problem eliminating the default icons. I just open the other icon file, drag the icon I want overtop of the icon I want to replace in the neoicon.nic file and it replaces it. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 185 Wed Sep 14, 1994 L.SMITH30 [LOUIS] at 16:15 EDT Dan, Neo4 has arrived on the Rock. Thanks Dan. One the known bugs according to the Readme file is that you cannot save the Sort choice onto the Neodesk*.inf file. Would it be possible to write it into the file with Steno or any other text editor? If so please let me know the relevant line to change. Well done, ,---_ / `-_-----_ / THE ROCK OF `-_ * Louis / GIBRALTAR `-__|_ ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 186 Wed Sep 14, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:03 EDT I received Neodesk 4 today. How come no one has mentioned the little surprise included in the manual? Gribnif bucks! cool. :-) Thanks guys. John B ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 187 Wed Sep 14, 1994 B.MENAGH at 19:07 EDT I finally was able to get NEO4 to boot with Geneva. Thanks to those who offered their suggestions. My problem was in using Superboot and not ensuring the GEM.SYS file directed the computer to the proper location. Thanks again. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 188 Wed Sep 14, 1994 J.LEMLEY [Jack] at 18:11 CDT Happy Hacker, I tried changing the memory dialog stting per your suggestion. I set it initially I think to 256k like you said. When I rebooted Geneva would load then when it came time for neo to load (I have it set as a shell in Geneva I got and error dialog per the following: This operation requires more memory than is permitted in the memory dialog. Proceed anyway? Continue Cancel Strangly enough I raised it all the way to "Take 500__KB at all times" in stages and still got the error message. I went back to "no limit". Neo 4 appears to really soak up the memory. I get a 60k frag at boot time that never goes away. Where's Dan? Jack Aladdin lag will probably get me on my last question :-) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 189 Wed Sep 14, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 18:49 CDT Matt, I only use Aladdin as single tasking but did set for multitasking one time testing two days ago and pulled the same trick out of the hat. Using NeoDesk4 (no Geneva), no desktop notes, it did bomb me out of First Word + after being on for about 5 hours, soooo, I'm not even sure that wasn't just a glitch. It also did bomb out once while I was typing a semi-long post in Aladdin today. I'm now trying Teradesk as well as the regular desktop with no crashes yet. Frank L BTW I stopped using GEMSOUND, I found that it was somewhat distracting, but then again roosters crowing *******(G). ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 190 Wed Sep 14, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:46 EDT Dan, Tim - After reading Tim's post about changing the 'Take xxx Kb Memory' I did just that. Because I had been up and running already, there was no use seeing if that would effect my First Boot problem, so I created an 'OldNEO' folder and copied the original NEO_INF.DAT file into it. Then I changed the Take Memory settings and saved. OK, now it got interesting. I move the original .DAT file from it's folder to the clipboard, and move the new NEO_INF.DAT (with the Take Memory change) to the OldNEO folder. (At this point two copies of the C drive window are open.) I then drag the clipbaord icon containing the original .DAT file from the clipboard to the NEODESK4 folder, and get a PATH NOT FOUND message! Click OK and the file is in the directory. HUH? Later, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 191 Wed Sep 14, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:59 CDT Re: Memory fragging How much you worry about a memory fragment should be directly related to how much memory you have. For example, on a 16M machine, there's no point in worrying about a 50K frag (which I almost always get when I boot up). Even on a 4M machine, 50K isn't too much of a big deal. It amounts to less than 2% of your RAM. I use NeoDesk set to "No Limit". Sometimes it causes frags, but for the most part it seems to clean itself up reasonably well, even in the icon editor (which I use a lot). ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 192 Wed Sep 14, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:23 CDT JAB -- >(whatever) file but there doesn't seem to be an option for removing your >defaults to make way for my choices. Too much improving on a good thing if Go into the icon editor, double click on one of your old icons, then use the "COPY" function to copy it. Exit that icon and double click on one of the default icons. Use the "CLEAR" option to clear it off the icon editing screen, then use the "PASTE" option to paste down a copy of your "old" icon. That will then replace it as the default. That *should* work. +~+~+~+~+ Matt -- >It was back again this morning. (First Boot... wasn't that a Stallone >movie???!!) <G> I think you're getting it confused with "Das Boot." Or was it the "TOSeidon Adventure"? :-) -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 193 Wed Sep 14, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 23:43 EDT Matt and Tom_W, OK, I was trying to reorder my icons which wouldn't work. Silly me, not thinking to just copy over the defaults. Now my NeoDesktop looks just like my Falcon desktop, progress is being made. Dan, After I reset my colors with the CPX and I run a program, when Neodesk reloads it comes up in the right colors. It only seems to happen on startup. Speaking of which, I have Neo set to launch from a function key off my desktop and I always get a Neoload.prg must be run at least once message (or something of that nature) so I only run it by clicking on it. Neoload is the last thing in my Auto folder, is there anything it should run ahead of, or behind for that matter? I am also seeing memory fragmentation when using the icon editor. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 194 Thu Sep 15, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 01:10 EDT Dan, Sorry again. I could have sworn I changed my install Aplication and SAVED it but I guess not. It was looking for the wrong copy of Neoload. More problems- - I was able to run Aladdin fine but when I went to do an autopass everything locked up. The terminal menu stayed highlighted and the mouse still moved but nothing was happening, and I had to reboot. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 195 Wed Sep 14, 1994 R.GARDNER2 [Gaitor] at 22:41 PDT I just got my NeoDesk 4 upgrade last weekend and been checking it out and reading the manual at every chance I get. I installed it on a Floppy Disk to get the "FEEL" of before I install on my Hard Drive. Every thing that I have checked out so far works as advertised except one. When I boot up in Medium Resolution I can "SET VIDEO MODE" to Low and it will reboot in Low Resolution. But when I try to "SET VIDEO MODE" from Low Resolution to Medium, NeoDesk prompts me to insert my boot disk with my DESKTOP.INF on it, then says that it has been modified, and asks if I want to reboot. When I click on "CONTINUE", it reboots, but into Low Resolution not Medium like it was supposed to. I did notice that the dialog window states that selecting "OK" for "SET VIDEO MODE" will modify my NEWDESK.INF but since I am using TOS 1.4, I have a DESKTOP.INF, not a NEWDESK.INF. Is there some setting that I am not using to get NeoDesk to switch from Low to Medium? It is only something of a curiosity, since on my HardDrive I use XBOOT to load different NeoDesk 3 Desktops for different sets of programs in different resolutions. I am wondering if this is a bug, or if there is something wrong with my copy of NeoDesk 4. Bob {Gaitor} Gardner ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 196 Thu Sep 15, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:08 EDT Gerry - The TOSeidon Adventure... ya gotta love it! <G> Thanks for the laugh. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 197 Thu Sep 15, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 21:38 EDT Matt, I'm not using Alladin at all. I'm using Flash II in Single-tasking. Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 198 Thu Sep 15, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 21:44 EDT Matt & Frank L Oops! I thought Matt was speaking to me about our bootup problems. Sorry guys. Frank G ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 199 Fri Sep 16, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 02:17 PDT Matt, Frank, Aladdin is pretty stable for me under Geneva/Neo-4, but frequently bombed on exiting with just Neo-4. I've just tried a new setting in the memory dialog and so far everything's working great. Hope it stays that way? Now Diamond Edge is another story... trashed my hard drive so many times I just gave up on it! (Nothing to do with Neo-4 BTW...) Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside! PS: Can't see why DeskTop Notes would cause a problem? ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 200 Fri Sep 16, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 03:36 PDT Gaitor, I had the same thing happen. Works okay under Geneva (doesn't reboot to change rez), but without it, I couldn't go up-rez either (will go from med to low, but not back). All, After experimenting with various settings this is what I've found makes Neo-4 the most stable on my system... NeoDesk-4 alone (No Geneva) --------------------------- I have found that Neo- 4 alone (no Geneva) will continuously fragment memory as you run programs if set to "Unload for execute" and the "No limit" option in the memory dialog is used. So, if you are running without Geneva you should turn OFF "Unload for execute", or experiment with the "Take ____ Kb at all times" option in the memory dialog. (Assuming Neo-4 releases that memory when it unloads -- otherwise it kind of defeats the purpose... I'll have to experiment some more and let you know?) NeoDesk-4 and Geneva -------------------- Since "Unload for execute" is supposed to be turned OFF under Geneva, it's best to use the "No limit" option in the memory dialog. The icon editor and help functions will both fragment memory, but the frags are minimal and shouldn't be a problem unless you use BOTH those functions a lot. Running programs works fine (no frags that aren't caused by funky software). Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 201 Fri Sep 16, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:44 EDT Tim, Diamond Edge? In my case Diamond Edge hase saved my life on a few occasions. Never....since it's release has it ever damaged anything on my hard drive. Still experimenting with Neodesk 4 when I have the time. I have not formed any opinions that I wish to share yet. John B. ------------